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Variators , what actually wears ?

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#23 ·
  • Kid with a new toy here: QP '08MY M139 believe with the 4.2L F136 s/u V8 81k miles -- picked up from dealer's lot two days ago and bought. Dealer had collected me in it from train station and so car was warmed up for my test drive. Took about ¾ hour to strike deal, do paperwork, pay up and out the door trying to avoid rush hour for the 130 mile drive home. So at no stage did I notice any clatter/rattle on cold start up. But now it's home, I do :-(
  • Only lasts for about ½ sec and then engine running is really quiet (26mpg I got light foot driving it home) Is this symptomatic of the camshaft variator issue that's under thread here? I believe I've got wet sump with this engine.
  • Yet to source a home OBDII hand-held diagnostics that'll do variator adapting (?) on these cars -- what's in common use / recommended here?
  • It's also been said that there's an "update" available. But not sure for what? Variator, variator solenoid? Accumulator/s? Pump?
  • Not sure whether this board will allow me to attach a .MP3 file of the startup clatter / rattle. But will try and get a recording of it to upload
  • I've come from Jaguar XJ8 3.2L and 4L -- I've had three but was time to move on. Their engines had an issue with timing chain tensioners (plastic, duh!) And upper timing chain guides. Both give a clatter / rattle when worn. So its best to have at least the tensioners done even if you don't have any clatter
  • Thoughts from those had it, seen it, got the Tee shirt in here gratefully read before making a fool of myself at main dealer and having my wallet raped...
 
#24 ·
RichardSEL said:
  • Kid with a new toy here: QP '08MY M139 believe with the 4.2L F136 s/u V8 81k miles -- picked up from dealer's lot two days ago and bought. Dealer had collected me in it from train station and so car was warmed up for my test drive. Took about ¾ hour to strike deal, do paperwork, pay up and out the door trying to avoid rush hour for the 130 mile drive home. So at no stage did I notice any clatter/rattle on cold start up. But now it's home, I do :-(
  • Only lasts for about ½ sec and then engine running is really quiet (26mpg I got light foot driving it home) Is this symptomatic of the camshaft variator issue that's under thread here? I believe I've got wet sump with this engine.
  • Yet to source a home OBDII hand-held diagnostics that'll do variator adapting (?) on these cars -- what's in common use / recommended here?
  • It's also been said that there's an "update" available. But not sure for what? Variator, variator solenoid? Accumulator/s? Pump?
  • Not sure whether this board will allow me to attach a .MP3 file of the startup clatter / rattle. But will try and get a recording of it to upload
  • I've come from Jaguar XJ8 3.2L and 4L -- I've had three but was time to move on. Their engines had an issue with timing chain tensioners (plastic, duh!) And upper timing chain guides. Both give a clatter / rattle when worn. So its best to have at least the tensioners done even if you don't have any clatter
  • Thoughts from those had it, seen it, got the Tee shirt in here gratefully read before making a fool of myself at main dealer and having my wallet raped...
Click to expand...
The 2008 MY cars are wet sump and they did not come with the updated cam cap. The "update" has a one-way check valve that helps retain oil in the top end which in turn extends the life of the variators. I would check with the previous owner or do a title history to see if this has been done. However it likely was not if you have the startup rattle.

There are two variator solenoids (1 per bank) which can be disconnected via the wire leading into the valve cover. Disconnecting this may make the sound go away but doesn't necessarily indicate that the solenoid is bad. I would get it to someone who is EXPERIENCED in variator replacement to properly diagnose. The solenoids are an easy fix but the variators are typically a $5K job at an independent shop, closer to $9K at the dealer.

The chain tensioners are fairly reliable on these cars. The chain guides get old but not at 80K miles, typically. I had one of mine replaced but it was over 100K. Once the variators are replaced (if that is in fact the problem), then that would be the time to inspect as the front will be open and everything will be in plain view.

In summary, the fact that the car is a 2008 wet sump and you have a rattle, leads me to think the variators are making the noise. It is a substantial repair. It's the number one reason why someone sells the car, hands down. You need to IMMEDIATELY get it looked at and decide if the repair is worth while or contact the original seller, as the repair will be necessary very soon.
 
#26 ·
Thanks for the quick replies guyz -- I saw a Farrari specialist this lunch time who was unable to confidently diagnose as the engine was hot. I've sent him the .MP3 file I took this morning
but that's none too clear either. But he did say that listening to tickover when hot that there would be an audible issue then if I had a variator problem now. I'd rather protect and survive.
So have asked him to have a listen to the audio and quote me for "end caps"

I can't either give a URL for download of the .MP3 as my file sharing site is only for images. And the attachment facility here on this board doesn't allow .MP3 format files either. Not a size issue as it's only 1.2MB So if there's anyone that would take the time to listen please PM an email address and I'll attach by direct return

Thanks
Richard
 
#28 ·
SeanFulop said:
There's some information around that if you catch it early, before the variators themselves get damaged, you can get away with just fixing the end caps.
Click to expand...
Fixing the caps as a preventative measure is a tall claim. I've seen them fail after the update. The update helps, no doubt, but it doesn't completely prevent failure.

Besides, the update only applies to wet sump cars which have CHEAP variators ($350 per side vs. $1,200 for the dry sump units)! Anyone who tears it down and doesn't replace the variators on a wet sump car is ill advised, to say the least.
 
#29 ·
Doing just the caps is 1/2 the repair...The reason they rattle is the locking pin is not locking in the base position when the car is shut off..The newer units are a totally different design with a large spring to prevent this...You can look at it like this...Car manufactures like to control cost...They wouldn't have gone through the expense of developing a new variator if all they needed to was install that tiny check valve.. Jason
 
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#30 ·
So, it seems from the valuable info here that changing both Variators for uprated versions is the way to go, and not just the end caps. But that'd cost US$1,200 parts only or parts and labour? -- questions, more questions:

Are the two "end caps" an uprated item that fit right into the existing Variators? Are those parts OEM or from a specialist aftermarket supplier? What sort of labour hours would I expect from a good reputation indie shop to do both? Where can I find the part #?

And are the two uprated Variators those that replace the existing factory fitted? Available from an aftermarket supplier or only from main dealer spares? What sort of labour hours would I expect from a good reputation indie shop to do both? Where can I find the part #?

As co-incidence would have it, neighbours are Italian and believe they're with their families in northern Italy -- so might be able to get them to buy there and bring back in the new year
 
#31 ·
A machine shop installs the check valves into your cam caps...The updated variator comes from Maserati only....You need to get a price in your area as the price here can vary greatly depending on your area let alone another country...Jason
 
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#32 ·
RichardSEL said:
So, it seems from the valuable info here that changing both Variators for uprated versions is the way to go, and not just the end caps. But that'd cost US$1,200 parts only or parts and labour? -- questions, more questions:

Are the two "end caps" an uprated item that fit right into the existing Variators? Are those parts OEM or from a specialist aftermarket supplier? What sort of labour hours would I expect from a good reputation indie shop to do both? Where can I find the part #?

And are the two uprated Variators those that replace the existing factory fitted? Available from an aftermarket supplier or only from main dealer spares? What sort of labour hours would I expect from a good reputation indie shop to do both? Where can I find the part #?

As co-incidence would have it, neighbours are Italian and believe they're with their families in northern Italy -- so might be able to get them to buy there and bring back in the new year
Click to expand...
You have a wet sump car. As I stated in my post, your variators are the "cheaper" parts, not the $1,200 dry sump units, however the majority of your expense will be in labor and additional parts. Like Jason said, price it in your area. I expect the total repair to be in the neighborhood of $6K as labor time will easily approach 30 hours.

The update on the end caps is typically done at the time of variator replacement. The shop will send the caps off for machining and will be returned in a short amount of time for reinstallation. The update allows for more oil retention in the top end which is understood to prolong the life of your variators. Also, you mention a "good reputation" shop. That means nothing to me as I know of top rated chop shops and excellent techs with no real reviews. Just take it to an EXPERIENCED shop - one that has performed this service before.

Also, before you go out pricing parts, keep in mind that your car is 12 years old and performing invasive surgery on a car of that age will uncover other issues. Things will break, seals will need replaced, etc., etc. Always give yourself a $1K buffer just in case.

Regardless, I think you need to quickly determine if the service is in fact needed on your car and contact the dealer from which you bought it to discuss options. This is a major service and won't be cheap. This will likely add 30%-40% to the purchase price of your car. If you're okay with that, then drop the cash and enjoy the car. Otherwise time is a ticking.
 
#33 ·
More excellent and wise advice from this forum.

Spoke with this lot who seem to know what they're talking about , having done four before. They confirmed the mechanical side of what you've described above:
https://www.supercaritalia.co.uk/

They want to check my oil pressure tomorrow (£90 for one hour = US$120) and then tell me my options and generate a quote. They say my recording of clatter's too indistinct to confirm.
They say that the End Caps are sent away to be re-machined, Ferrari have to know and get stored on their engine database that it's been done. mf

128767
 
#34 ·
Ok, great. It really could just be a solenoid, or it could need variators with our without the update. The only way it to see it in person and get a real diagnosis. I was being forward with my opinion because I'd hate for you to be sticker-shocked and stuck with the car. That's how people grow to hate Maserati! Sometimes dealers are willing to work as they likely sold something with a known issue. Please let us know the outcome.
 
#38 ·
$120 is a good shop rate for this end of the business, my shop charges $150 although they seem generous with their times. Despite nominal labor rates some shops will quote a flat price for large jobs like this.
 
#39 ·
Visited SuperCar Italia yesterday afternoon. They confirmed diagnosis was solenoid "End Caps" just on one side, drivers' or RHS or our off side. They dismantle and send off to Ferrari main agent. Depending on condition of my parts the bill from them would be either £721.92 if mine can be machined. Or £839.52 for new. Both inc. our sales tax (VAT). Met with shop's proprietor (who was working on an Aventador) who said their labour rate for this job would be £95/hour +VAT wanting 16 hours. Totals: £2,546 or £2,664 (US$3,383)

He confirms that new parts now available from Mas main agent do have this update within them p/n "A000253625 N/STK Intake Timing Vari". Anyone with access confirm this is a different p/n than the previous unmodified version?

Typical: no clatter on startup this morning from cold
 
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