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Variators , what actually wears ?

23K views 48 replies 13 participants last post by  Connor murphy  
Dave:

Yes, I think everyone on this forum has probably contributed to this topic to some degree at one point or another. What KTBD said is correct, however you need to understand the following as well:

You have a dry sump motor that uses a very reliable high-pressure variator and VVT system used in the Ferrari F430 and Maserati Camboicorsa/Grand Sports. It is of the helical spline design that rotates forward with pressure, similar to the Alfa Romeos, which ironically suffer from a similar problem. The dry sump engines do not need re-machining as the check valves and caps are already equipped and are proven to work as is in every application other than the QP. The wet sump units are completely different in design and require the update.

It is very interesting that you mention the accumulator.

What intrigued me about this whole issue is that the wet sump units typically fail one side at a time, at least the one's I have witnessed. I sure there are exceptions. However the dry sump units typically fail bilaterally - in other words, both banks fail at the same time - otherwise they never, ever fail. Odd. Additionally, I know of well-serviced, low mileage, spotless cars with serious variator failure and other neglected, filthy cars that are silent on startup for life. It is not dependent upon oil changes, etc. Living in South Florida, where QPs grow on trees, you see a very large cross-section of examples that allow people like me to make such statements.

Anyway, back to the accumulator. The fact that the dry sump units fail bi-laterally or not at all leads me to believe there is something behind their operation causing this. Could it be the driver? Searching for common denominators of failed cars vs. those equipped with the same setup (like a QP vs a F430 or CC), the QP is the only car that defaults to Auto when started. So, I began to think that maybe it is a result of a very heavy car spending most of its useful life in the low RPM range, lugging itself and starving the VVT system of oil, thus accelerating its wear. Could be. Then, I thought "why would both sides fail?" Is there something in the mechanical process that could cause or influence failure of both sides simultaneously? That's when I looked at the accumulator.

A good friend of mine just completed the Maserati academy and is employed at a Ferrari/Maserati dealership. He shared with me all his training collateral, photos, etc. on variator service. HERE'S WHAT SHOCKED ME. They no longer train on dry sump engines, although the training manual reads "parts between the dry and wet sump motors are different by 80%." They simply state that the replacement process is the same. There is no training on the function of the accumulators. Those who were willing to share what they know, all described the part performing different functions and even the legacy techs said to me "the only thing we've ever done was replaced them when they leaked externally, which is rare." I asked what it does and my response was "we don't know, really." Some say it supplies oil pressure on startup; others say it is only during the advance/retard at 3000 rpm.

The moral to the story is this - I am replacing mine to be safe, just prior to replacing my variators. I am not replacing the variators myself, but I have replaced my variator solenoids (very easy job), and will be replacing my accumulator and pump just to be safe. Then my variators will be replaced. If you search my previous posts, my car has had a viscious rattle almost since the car had very LOW mileage - it is not at 102K.

Anyway, whatever you can find out would be appreciated. It would be interesting to see if changing out other less expensive parts early in the game changes anything. Like if your accumulator was changed out - would that solve anything? It's only a couple hundred dollars. Maybe worth a try.

As far as your specific questions about what actually fails, maybe Jason can chime in. He does these repairs like clockwork and could probably give the most trustworthy answers.
 
Noticing that the solenoid appears to feed pressure into "one side" of the variator and the accumulator feeds into the other side of the variator, I'm curious if the accumulator provides some sort of stability or resistance to allow the variator to maintain position, or does it utilize pressure from both to push it into one direction? Could it be a delicate balance of these two devices working together to maintain proper timing and prevent premature wear?

I remember one forum member disconnected the tubes that lead from the accumulator into the top end and fastened pressure meters with clear chambers and you could see that movement of oil was very minimal. However, at idle with the hood up, you don't get to see how the pressure changes when the units are called on to advance timing.
 
Knowing what we know about the accumulator's role in the VVT system, what do you suspect the symptom would be if one were to fail? I think that is the million dollar question when excluding it as a culprit.
 
Eric my Broh you mention a couple of times and it kinda sank in as something you were pretty certain about.
That Varaitors fail Bilaterally. As you read in the thread I started, only one bank of mines has failed, only one bank has gone off time. One last question on your input ion this particular thread (on the subject that mechanic Jason´s fukn sick off) You mentioned changing the solenoids was a doddle. Whats does that involve? Whats the procedure Broth?
I read your previous posts and I don't believe you confirmed that your car had unilateral variator failure.
 
  • Kid with a new toy here: QP '08MY M139 believe with the 4.2L F136 s/u V8 81k miles -- picked up from dealer's lot two days ago and bought. Dealer had collected me in it from train station and so car was warmed up for my test drive. Took about ¾ hour to strike deal, do paperwork, pay up and out the door trying to avoid rush hour for the 130 mile drive home. So at no stage did I notice any clatter/rattle on cold start up. But now it's home, I do :-(
  • Only lasts for about ½ sec and then engine running is really quiet (26mpg I got light foot driving it home) Is this symptomatic of the camshaft variator issue that's under thread here? I believe I've got wet sump with this engine.
  • Yet to source a home OBDII hand-held diagnostics that'll do variator adapting (?) on these cars -- what's in common use / recommended here?
  • It's also been said that there's an "update" available. But not sure for what? Variator, variator solenoid? Accumulator/s? Pump?
  • Not sure whether this board will allow me to attach a .MP3 file of the startup clatter / rattle. But will try and get a recording of it to upload
  • I've come from Jaguar XJ8 3.2L and 4L -- I've had three but was time to move on. Their engines had an issue with timing chain tensioners (plastic, duh!) And upper timing chain guides. Both give a clatter / rattle when worn. So its best to have at least the tensioners done even if you don't have any clatter
  • Thoughts from those had it, seen it, got the Tee shirt in here gratefully read before making a fool of myself at main dealer and having my wallet raped...
The 2008 MY cars are wet sump and they did not come with the updated cam cap. The "update" has a one-way check valve that helps retain oil in the top end which in turn extends the life of the variators. I would check with the previous owner or do a title history to see if this has been done. However it likely was not if you have the startup rattle.

There are two variator solenoids (1 per bank) which can be disconnected via the wire leading into the valve cover. Disconnecting this may make the sound go away but doesn't necessarily indicate that the solenoid is bad. I would get it to someone who is EXPERIENCED in variator replacement to properly diagnose. The solenoids are an easy fix but the variators are typically a $5K job at an independent shop, closer to $9K at the dealer.

The chain tensioners are fairly reliable on these cars. The chain guides get old but not at 80K miles, typically. I had one of mine replaced but it was over 100K. Once the variators are replaced (if that is in fact the problem), then that would be the time to inspect as the front will be open and everything will be in plain view.

In summary, the fact that the car is a 2008 wet sump and you have a rattle, leads me to think the variators are making the noise. It is a substantial repair. It's the number one reason why someone sells the car, hands down. You need to IMMEDIATELY get it looked at and decide if the repair is worth while or contact the original seller, as the repair will be necessary very soon.
 
There's some information around that if you catch it early, before the variators themselves get damaged, you can get away with just fixing the end caps.
Fixing the caps as a preventative measure is a tall claim. I've seen them fail after the update. The update helps, no doubt, but it doesn't completely prevent failure.

Besides, the update only applies to wet sump cars which have CHEAP variators ($350 per side vs. $1,200 for the dry sump units)! Anyone who tears it down and doesn't replace the variators on a wet sump car is ill advised, to say the least.
 
So, it seems from the valuable info here that changing both Variators for uprated versions is the way to go, and not just the end caps. But that'd cost US$1,200 parts only or parts and labour? -- questions, more questions:

Are the two "end caps" an uprated item that fit right into the existing Variators? Are those parts OEM or from a specialist aftermarket supplier? What sort of labour hours would I expect from a good reputation indie shop to do both? Where can I find the part #?

And are the two uprated Variators those that replace the existing factory fitted? Available from an aftermarket supplier or only from main dealer spares? What sort of labour hours would I expect from a good reputation indie shop to do both? Where can I find the part #?

As co-incidence would have it, neighbours are Italian and believe they're with their families in northern Italy -- so might be able to get them to buy there and bring back in the new year
You have a wet sump car. As I stated in my post, your variators are the "cheaper" parts, not the $1,200 dry sump units, however the majority of your expense will be in labor and additional parts. Like Jason said, price it in your area. I expect the total repair to be in the neighborhood of $6K as labor time will easily approach 30 hours.

The update on the end caps is typically done at the time of variator replacement. The shop will send the caps off for machining and will be returned in a short amount of time for reinstallation. The update allows for more oil retention in the top end which is understood to prolong the life of your variators. Also, you mention a "good reputation" shop. That means nothing to me as I know of top rated chop shops and excellent techs with no real reviews. Just take it to an EXPERIENCED shop - one that has performed this service before.

Also, before you go out pricing parts, keep in mind that your car is 12 years old and performing invasive surgery on a car of that age will uncover other issues. Things will break, seals will need replaced, etc., etc. Always give yourself a $1K buffer just in case.

Regardless, I think you need to quickly determine if the service is in fact needed on your car and contact the dealer from which you bought it to discuss options. This is a major service and won't be cheap. This will likely add 30%-40% to the purchase price of your car. If you're okay with that, then drop the cash and enjoy the car. Otherwise time is a ticking.
 
Ok, great. It really could just be a solenoid, or it could need variators with our without the update. The only way it to see it in person and get a real diagnosis. I was being forward with my opinion because I'd hate for you to be sticker-shocked and stuck with the car. That's how people grow to hate Maserati! Sometimes dealers are willing to work as they likely sold something with a known issue. Please let us know the outcome.