Greetings, I have experience behind the F1 as I drive that now in a GS. Wondering if the GT I hope to buy would be a more enjoyable driver with the F1 or the ZF. I like the F1. I have had ZF in BMWs etc but assume the one in the GT is more interesting than those. Any drivers with experience in both? Thanks.
ZF or F1 transmission in GranTurismo?
Sportinlife
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The F1 gearbox is awesome when driven as intended (manual, sport, aggressive). In order to get the fastest shift mode you need to be at >85% throttle and above 5500rpm, then you get the 100ms shifts. FYI the Duoselect upshift time is 250-300ms, almost 3X slower.
The F1 gearbox is identical to the one in the Ferrari 599 GTB and at the time of release was the fastest shifting road car gearbox in the world. You can read about it here https://auto.ferrari.com/en_EN/sports-cars-models/past-models/599-gtb-fiorano/
That said, under normal (slow) driving in Automatic mode it sucks terribly, you and your passenger's head will bop back and forth with each shift.
The F1 gearbox is identical to the one in the Ferrari 599 GTB and at the time of release was the fastest shifting road car gearbox in the world. You can read about it here https://auto.ferrari.com/en_EN/sports-cars-models/past-models/599-gtb-fiorano/
That said, under normal (slow) driving in Automatic mode it sucks terribly, you and your passenger's head will bop back and forth with each shift.
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It seems to me that regardless of what kind of car you are driving, you will certainly not be driving like Joe-Racer THAT much of the time... and so, unless you can master the DuoSelect or the CambioCorsa or the F1 (by way of throttle let-off-relative to paddle-pull / throttle resumption timing and roll-on versus quick, sharp rtn action)... and you put up with the delay in acceleration associated with this slow-shifting... well, it could be vexing. When I drive my 6MT and I am the only person in the car, well, I anticipate my shifts, I control just how fast the shift is accomplished... and my head does not bob 'cause I can well-anticipate the let-off in acc. and the resumption in acc. Not so with a passenger... but I can manipulate throttle, clutch, shifter, so it is at least smooth. When it comes to a roboticized manual like the aforementioned Magnetti Marelli / Graziano transaxles - you need to anticipate what the automated clutch actuation will be, what the shift actuator will do, and what the electronic throttle will do (notwithstanding your being able to actuate the throttle yourself). When you learn, under varying conditions, how the system will behave, you can compensate with your backing off and re-introducing throttle to work with the automated functions... and all will be fairly smooth... assuming you are good with your muscle-learning... and assuming you are a particularly coordinated individual. Lots of ifs. Hard to do, I would say. But it CAN be done.
Much simpler for a human being to operate the clutch and gearstick...and so I still maintain that these automated-manual 'boxes are harder to learn than a regular M/T.
Much simpler for a human being to operate the clutch and gearstick...and so I still maintain that these automated-manual 'boxes are harder to learn than a regular M/T.
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I really don't know why some of you have so much to say about the F1 transmission in GT. I have it, and it is really great for me. OK it is really slow when not in sport mode, but I drive 98% of time in sport mode, even when I'm not driving agressivly, because of sound and shifting is really good. I have tried also the car with ZF when buying, but the F1 is really much more involving. OK, for mainly city driving ZF would be better choice, but GT is not menat to be city driven most of the time. It becomes alive on an open roads.
I have also tried some double clutch boxes, like Porsche PDK, Nissan GTR, but the F1 from GTS is much more involving when shifting. The double clutch boxes are great, but for me they don't give you the sporty feeling which you have with F1 on sport mode. Manual would be also good choice in GTS, but I'm not sure it would be better than F1. And I drive my GTS, than an Audi automatic and a manual box all the time, so I know how to drive manual box.
And for doing with throttle - it is in user manual, that you should not lift off when changing, and for me this is the best strategy. Changing is the best when you just do nothing with throttle when changing, because the computer knows exactly what to do, as the parameters are not changing during shifting. Maybe just at really low speeds you can lift off a little bit.
I have also tried some double clutch boxes, like Porsche PDK, Nissan GTR, but the F1 from GTS is much more involving when shifting. The double clutch boxes are great, but for me they don't give you the sporty feeling which you have with F1 on sport mode. Manual would be also good choice in GTS, but I'm not sure it would be better than F1. And I drive my GTS, than an Audi automatic and a manual box all the time, so I know how to drive manual box.
And for doing with throttle - it is in user manual, that you should not lift off when changing, and for me this is the best strategy. Changing is the best when you just do nothing with throttle when changing, because the computer knows exactly what to do, as the parameters are not changing during shifting. Maybe just at really low speeds you can lift off a little bit.
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If you wanted to up-change at 2500 rpm and light throttle (but in Sport mode) would it benefit you from a smoothness perspective to lift throttle a bit when changing gear?
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On a modern car you don't really need to lift the throttle to help shifting...Auto or F1....The engine ECM is in communication with the transmission module..The ECM gets a request shift command from the TCM then the engine module retards the ignition timing briefly to reduce engine output for a smoother shift...Jason
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I like the F1 gearbox exactly in one car, and this is in my Scuderia. The F1-Superfast-II configuration with its rough and brutal switching (60ms shift times in race mode) fits perfect in this car. You can discuss the F1 in the 599. After all, this car still has a sporting claim with its 620 hp. But in a Granturismo this gearbox is out of place. As I said, the Granturismo is heavy and has "only" 460hp, this car follows another purpose, it is not a and will never be a "racing car". The F1 gearbox is just as superfluous as the carbon hood of the MC variant, these things do not make the Granturismo faster or more sporty.
I absolutely love the GTS for what it is ; a spectacularly beautiful, luxurious , solid, comfortable, magnificent sounding exhaust note and a perfectly fast enough TOURING automobile, arguably unmatched in its class ...with the exception of the DB 11 . ( not using just speed as a criteria otherwise a few other cars may be in there, but they’re all ugly , IMO , or others are just 2+ 2 ..two baby seats in the back ) But, as fantastic as this car is, by no stretch of the imagination can it be called a sports car. IMO you can’t even really call it a “sporty“ car. As pointed in prior posts it’s a very heavy car, and while that has its benefits , the handling / cornering is barely mediocre, and a F1 transmission in it may give you the placebo effect of driving a sports car, but that’s about all. BlackMasi brought up the HP comparison, and whilst 460 HP and 380 torque of the GTS is ostensibly impressive, more importantly is the power to weight ratio. Our car is about 10:1 . The 430 Scuderia , the 599, etc are ( I think ) around 6:1 or 7:1 . That’s a huge difference . Some McLarens are < 4:1. Those are sports cars ! So IMHO, the ZF transmission is perfect for what our car is meant to be, and it can accommodate just about every driving style, and what the car is capable of .. an F1 is really misplaced in the GTS, and the incremental difference in shifting fun it may offer is really inconsequential vs. the ZF’s paddle shift which already gives you probably 90 % of the effect you want . That’s alsmost like having a stick shift in a Bentley ..what would you get out of that ? :|
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You're probably right with your comments. Hehe early Bentleys WERE considered sports cars and did have manual 'boxes ? ... in fact so did Rolls Royces, I think, before 1954 ? .
I always drive in Sport mode, and Manual 95% of the time. I occasionally use auto-shifting for the convenience. I find the shifting speed is never slow, especially in comparison to what a person could do. A friend of mine has a Dodge Challenger R/T 6-speed and riding with him is like riding in a farm truck. Each shift is almost painfully slow to watch him do, since I am used to the way the QP shifts.
True, and yeah back in the old days pretty much every car came with a stick shift.. However, if one looks up the definition of a “ sports car “ in the dictionary or in automotive books, it can only have two seats max. , it can only be a convertible, it can only have a stick shift , I can’t remember the weight ratio but that’s in there also, and so on. Hmm, I think they need to update those definitions to catch up with modern times :wink2:
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Eh, the cars you listed are firmly in "supercar" territory, and that McLaren is a hypercar. I realize there are old, objective, parameters which a car must meet in order to be considered, but from a power to weight ratio standpoint, consider this... the 90's era Miatas are knocking on the door of 20:1 power to weight ratio.
How do we measure "power-to-weight ratio"... 20:1 means what? The hp is 1/20 of the weight in lbs? I would think that "power-to-weight" would be 1:20 if that's the case. What's the power-to-weight ratio of a 1965 MG? Definitely a sports car.
Although since we're talking terminology here, some folks I've run into adamantly refuse to call their car a "sports car", correcting me by saying "it's a roadster!"
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Not quite sure how it's actually stated, but I was just correlating my response to the statement which I quoted.
Yeah pretty weird that terminology utilized is “ power to weight “ , but the ratio referenced is the reverse of that .. never undrestood why.
I also heard the it’s a roadster not a sports car “ correction “ from a few folks.. and heaven forbid you should refer to their car as a “ convertible “ , those could be fighting words :wink2:, and calling it a roadster is the only way to calm them down :grin2:.
MG - absolutely a sports car ! In fact, it has always been considered to be the classic, purest definition of what a sports car is, and probably the first car that rolls off the tongue of automotive fanatics when you ask them to give you examples of sports cars .
I also heard the it’s a roadster not a sports car “ correction “ from a few folks.. and heaven forbid you should refer to their car as a “ convertible “ , those could be fighting words :wink2:, and calling it a roadster is the only way to calm them down :grin2:.
MG - absolutely a sports car ! In fact, it has always been considered to be the classic, purest definition of what a sports car is, and probably the first car that rolls off the tongue of automotive fanatics when you ask them to give you examples of sports cars .
It's been my privilege to take a few rides in old MGs when I was a kid! My brother had an MG Midget when I was about 11... he took me for a ride one day and we ran out of gas... kind of silly. I also took a ride in a classic MG B owned by a friend in the late 1980s. You could still see quite a few of those cars in the 1980s... now they are rare as platinum, I honestly don't think I've ever seen one in Fresno in 10 years.
A friend of mine in SoCal used to build track cars out of MGs, I think he said he converted about 25 to 30 of those before he sold the business and moved on to other things ..like designing super chargers for Porsches . But he indicated the MGs were so good at racing even in stock form, that upgrading them into race cars didn’t require a monumental effort . He loved those MGs and maintains to this day they may still be the best and most inspiring sports car. Anyway, I’ve gone way of track here ( no pun intended ) , now returning back to the F1 vs. ZF topic ...0
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IMO the best available video on YouTube about the Granturismo, this gentleman brings the purpose of this car perfectly to the point. All that he has said is still valid today.
Regarding the ZF-Gearbox; listen from 5'15". Nothing to add from my side.
Regarding the ZF-Gearbox; listen from 5'15". Nothing to add from my side.
Yeah I have seen this many times. Great accurate review.
Love the "justification" comment.....so true.
I honestly don't understand what these people are doing to "burn the clutch out" in heavy traffic. I live in California and daily-drive my car to work, and sadly it sees heavy traffic most of the time. I have no problem with my clutch in this circumstance. Not to say it will last that long as I've already used 33% of a new clutch in 10,000 miles, but still, it is basically fine. As my shop owner advised, "keep it fully engaged or disengaged, not slipping if at all possible." I drove a Porsche 5-speed for many years so I fully understand what this means and it is pretty easy to do this. Sometimes in a traffic jam, people behind me wonder why I am not inching forward and just sit there stopped for a while but too bad for them, we will all get there eventually! I know I have to go 10 miles per hour minimum or I don't move. But seriously how far did this poor Aventador go to burn out the clutch from 72%? Only 100 miles? You would have to seriously try to accomplish this feat. I would hate to see that melted flywheel.
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