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F1 service and awesome clutch wear

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9.2K views 31 replies 10 participants last post by  SeanFulop  
#1 · (Edited)
Just picked up my F1 QP from the dealer here in Santa Monica. Had some weird shifting going on in AUTO mode for a few months and decided to take it in for an inspection. I drive the car 99% of the time in manual/sport the 1% Auto only to answer a call, really no sense in urgency as the car drove perfectly fine in Manual. I had the clutch and other items replaced also at the dealer when the odometer read 22K, it now reads 50K. I was crossing my fingers hoping that it wasn't the clutch wearing out causing the symptoms mentioned above. To make a long story longer ? 2 shifting actuators bleeders were loose and required a drop of the gear box and a re learn of the shifting points. None of this matters other than the reason for writing this post.

My clutch wear after 28K miles of aggressive LA manual/sport driving has ONLY worn 46.19%. This includes 1 year in the crazy hill city of San Francisco. My driving habits as follows.

99% in Manual/Sport, always Neutral at the stop light. I shift to Neutral ahead of time when coming to a stop from a higher gear. I try to park where I don't have to reverse. I'll tap down or up 2 gears to avoid an extra gear shift. Looking forward to another 54% roughly 30K miles at my rate. Not sure what those outhere with the Formula D DBW are getting as far as clutch wear. Just thought I share my experiences with real world documentation. 1st picture is the clutch replacement, second is today's read out. If someone wants to donate their DBW to test the remaining 54% clutch wear ? pm me.

Most of my services if not all have been with the dealer. The main reason believe it or not, at least here in Los Angeles. Prices are the same as the indi shops.
 

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#2 ·
That's about right. I got 60K on my rebuild and had over 100K on the remaining parts. I only changed everything out because my original, 12-year old release bearing was leaking.

My shifting habits are the same only a bit more aggressive. I downshift at EVERY stop and always shift above 3K (downshift above 3K also, every time). I also feather the throttle slightly for fastest clutch engagement when driving. I try not to allow any slip whatsoever. It sounds like a lot of work but it's part of my driving style now so it's second nature. It's simple math to me - when you double your engagement time you cut the clutch life in half.

The only thing you should know, though, is the Neutral in our cars isn't a true Neutral when the car is running. The clutch is disengaged from the flywheel when the Neutral gear is engaged so the car really doesn't know the difference between N and 1 until you shut the car off. When the motor is off, that's true N. In a stick shift, Neutral at a stoplight takes the load of the release bearing by keeping the clutch engaged with the flywheel, dropping the pressure to 0 at the slave, but that is not the case with the F1.
 
#7 ·
On a normal manual, the clutch and flywheel are engaged when in neutral with the foot off the clutch. In the F1 the clutch and flywheel are separated, and the load is on the release bearing. Same as sitting with your foot on the clutch pedal in a 6MT.


No idea why they did that.....

C
 
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#8 ·
Thank You Catmanv2 for clarifying that. When had a QP Sport-GT I used neutral a lot. So the proper thing to do is to stay in gear when coming to a stop? Does the F1 system then go to "true" neutral on it's own? Or does it do what manually going to neutral does....keeps the throw-out bearing engaged? I'm sorry for being so thick headed, but I had the impression that F1 was like a manual transmission in every way except for the actuated shifting.
 
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#9 ·
Yeah this is a revelation for me as well. Fact is if you leave a Duoselect "in gear" for too long at a stop it will go into neutral on its own and start beeping at you. So it is good to put it in neutral just to alleviate this behavior, if for no other reason. I had thought it helped with the strain on the clutch throw-out bearing as well but perhaps not...
 
#10 ·
As far as I know there is no 'true' neutral on the F1 box, I have no idea why it was made like that. It does seem very odd indeed.

If you select neutral as you coast to a stop you are, at least in theory, saving a tiny amount of clutch and flywheel wear......

C
 
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#12 · (Edited)
Catman is correct. The only time the gearbox is at "true neutral," is when the motor is off. This allows you to push the car if something fails and the car won't start. This is also why the car immediately goes into N when experiencing a trans fault or if pressure drops below like 35 bar. That way, when the car is shut off, or the F1 system won't allow you to start the car, the car will not be "locked" in gear.

You hear the "click" when shifting into N at a traffic light, because doing so engages the actuator. However, the F1 clutch never transfers the torque to the gearbox as is the case of a manual shift 6 speed.

Ferraris are the same way.
 
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#14 ·
Any time you change gears, you'll feel the shift, even going from N to 1, since the clutch will disengage and re-engage. It only take a fraction of a second, so you may feel it, or you may not. However, when going from 1 to N, the clutch will engage and the trans will go to N, but the clutch never disengages, as is the case with a standard manual transmission.

So, in summary, there is a "Neutral" gear, but the car doesn't actually "use" it when the car is running. The car will use it when the engine is shut off. Try this: listen to the car with the engine idling. Shift from 1 to N. You will hear a click. Then shut the car off, and turn the ignition on and go from 1 to N. The shift is much more pronounced with the motor off because it is actually engaging and disengaging the clutch. The clutch's disengagement moves the gearbox to the N gear so you can roll the car.

The easiest way to see this is when the car is when doing a pressure check on the system. Clutch pressure is at 0 when the gears are engaged and the car is rolling. Gears 1-6 all show 0 when the car is driving. This is just like a manual in the sense that you certainly don't drive with the clutch pedal depressed, unless you're changing gears. N with a F1, however, shows full pressure at all times when the car is running, proving that the "virtual clutch pedal" is depressed the entire time. When the motor is shut off, the car goes into first. Turn the ignition on and try to start the car, and the car will depress the "virtual clutch pedal" for you and shift to N to allow you to start the car. However, just like moving a stick to N with the clutch pedal depressed, the motor never makes any contact with the gearbox. The F1 system will only allow that to happen if you shift to N with the motor off and the ignition ON, just as if you moved the stick to N in a manual and let the clutch pedal out.
 
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#20 ·
NO, I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I do it for a number of reasons, like security of knowing if for some reason I lost clutch pressure, before the car has the chance to shift to N, I wouldn't be frozen in gear (This happened to me when I was testing the integrity of my F1 pump. When it froze up in N, I was able to push the car. When it froze in gear at speed, the car stopped in fist gear and was frozen solid until I got the pump to prime). Also, I like more control over my shifting, and shifting into N just before a stop has the same affect of depressing the clutch petal on a gated manual. I typically down shift all the way down to second then pull paddles back just before the car comes to a stop.

But, to Jason's point, unnecessary shifting must accelerate the wear to some degree, no doubt.

The point to this conversation I think was to let everyone know that using N at a stop does nothing in the way of preserving your release bearing. I used to think the same thing until I literally "saw" how these things operate.
 
#16 ·
The transmission goes into neutral every time the indicator shows N. The clutch, however, stays engaged for some time when the car is stopped. It will release after some time of no activity. I don't recall off the top of my head, but I think it's around 2-3 minutes. Personally, I do use N at stops because if there is any drag on the friction disc, I would rather it turn the transmission input shaft than remain stationary. The only downside of this is that you do have to remember to put it in gear before pulling away. I treat it like my manual vehicles; I put it in N at stops, and re-engage before pulling away. Sometimes Luigi holds the clutch the whole time, sometimes he gets tired and releases it while sitting there. YMMV.
 
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#22 ·
I'll stick to my "shifting around in neutral" because it's cheaper to replace the pump than the clutch. Reading through the archives, plenty of F1 clutches dont make it past 20K miles. I have a feeling it's because they don't drive it like a true manual. My previous F355 went 42K miles on it's 1st clutch before I sold it. Yes, I agree wear and tear is always a factor. I just try to mitigate where it goes.
 
#19 ·
You bet I named it! It's easier to curse out with a name.

And Jason's right, something is getting worn. I just drive it like that because that's how I treat a three pedal car and I like consistency.
 
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#23 ·
The Ferrari clutches last longer because they don`t slip the clutch much at all on a F1 car..It's like a on-off switch...A QP on the other hand must slip the clutch as it's a large luxury car...Clutch slippage = clutch wear...I fail to see how shifting to neutral does any thing to reduce wear on the clutch or anything else..The more you shift the car, the more the pump has to run and the more times all valves and actuator must work...I don't get it, but to each their own...Rather than dick around with neutral..Have your shop set the car up with a low PIS so it doesn't slip much..Jason
 
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#29 · (Edited)
I think this is possible but only under nearly all highway driving conditions. When you're on the highway, there's no clutch movement, the pump hardly ever primes and all the torque is headed to the gearbox, so there's pretty much zero clutch wear.

With the exception of one 5,500 mile highway trip, mine was almost exclusively city use - To and from work, various business meetings, bars, strip clubs, many inevitable drives to drop off various women at thier houses at 3am, unless of course, she lives on a dirt road - sorry babe, no can do. Car's clean. It's only a block, you'll make it.

So, now I just enjoy the car the way it was meant to be and I never worry about clutch wear. The girls on the other hand - they must wear comfortable shoes.
 
#28 ·
Do you know this for a fact ? Like you are the original owner? I have never seen an original clutch in a QP last anywhere near that? I think if you could get 50K out of one then you are doing great or live in the country....Jason
 
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#31 ·
My QP made it over 46K miles on its first clutch, being exclusively driven by old men (the first two owners) in Auto mode. The second owner used it chiefly for long trips, so that's the reason that happened.

I know that it saves the clutch to accelerate gently until it can engage. And yet, I just love the way the whole system works so smoothly when you jam it! It seems to *want* to get worn out fast. Lotsa throttle from a stop and its quite a thrill. It seems to work a bit better with MSP turned off, because then you've only got the mechanical LSD preventing wheelspin without the computer figuring out how much clutch slip it will need for X amount of gas.

The way I see it, I'm spending over $5000/year in maintenance on this car no matter what. I'm currently driving about 6000 miles/year at most. I don't really know how much clutch life I'll get but if it's 20K miles that's still more than 3 years of driving. Clutch job is $3,500 or so. Meh. It doesn't really add much.
 
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