I brought the car in for an adjustment of the Kevlar clutch because it was still glitchy and not improving. I just got off the phone with Carlos at Classic Coach and was told that they are going to resurface the clutch with traditional material. He was apologetic since they had done Kevlar Clutches before many times successfully on Ferrari's. I am disappointed, they are doing the replacement at their cost. I am traveling today and will update further later in the week. Jeff at formula dynamics was right that no one had done this successfully. sorry guys
jbergstein
sorry it didnt work out for u. we were all hoping it would. this is a real bummer. does carlos have any idea as to why this is not working out??
Clutch
I would spring for the difference and just put a new oem clutch in. I have been there and done that kevlar deal. Sorry to hear the news.
I would spring for the difference and just put a new oem clutch in. I have been there and done that kevlar deal. Sorry to hear the news.
Why would the kevlar clutches work on F1-type Ferrari's, but not Maserati's? Different thicknesses needed? Different flywheels? Just curious what it might be.
Dang it, I thought it was gonna be a good thing going for sure, coachworks isn't too far off from me, but I think I would be annoyed having to go back and forth to get it set up, any chance they will try it again?
if the kevlar clutch is made to be the same thickness as the oem, u have to wonder why it wont work.
Sadly, more than a few people (with multiple shops involved) have tried this conversion and were unsuccessful. In all of the cases reported here, owners gave up and went with an OEM clutch.
From what I understand, thickness isn't an issue as long as the plates are rebuilt correctly. The real issue is in the material. It sounds like kevlar simply doesn't allow for enough slip to operate properly.
Too bad this couldn't be sorted out.
From what I understand, thickness isn't an issue as long as the plates are rebuilt correctly. The real issue is in the material. It sounds like kevlar simply doesn't allow for enough slip to operate properly.
Too bad this couldn't be sorted out.
Thanks for posting , a few more days and i was about to send my new oem clutch off to the states to Peaco for Refacing what a costly disaster that could have been , im gutted to say the least , when i spoke to Carlos recently there was no mention of any adverse problems , so im betwixt to say the least , but thankful for not wasting time and money
regards loz
regards loz
Again, very sad news.
I am very curious to hear why the kevlar clutch fits a ferrari and doesn't fit the Maser.
Different materials on flywheel/pressureplate, matching badly with kevlar?
Was'nt as far as Loz, but surely my plate had to come out these days and was to be sent to Paeco as well.
I am very curious to hear why the kevlar clutch fits a ferrari and doesn't fit the Maser.
Different materials on flywheel/pressureplate, matching badly with kevlar?
Was'nt as far as Loz, but surely my plate had to come out these days and was to be sent to Paeco as well.
As a colleague on maseratiforum.co.uk forum suggested , it could well be the fact that fezza 360 and 430 clutches tend to be either on or off rather than the masser being an everyday car needing x amount of slippage involved shame but its sort of imaterial now wounld't want to pay out for the labour and the facing to find out ive got to do it all over again and then there's the lost down time what with spring and summer not too far away , want to make the most of it , after a snowed in xmas and new year gagging for a decent drive
regards loz
regards loz
was googling around a bit and what i found where some storys about breaking in a kevlar clutch.
Seems to me that the CC system is to difficult to obtain the desired procedure for breaking in correctly.
Here is one of the stories i found about this subject:
"yeah I got one of those instruction sheets too.
Here's what the guy who rebuilt it said, specifically referring to "breaking in" vs "seating":
"You want to take it real easy. Then, after time goes by (sounded like he meant SUFFICIENT time - onramp), you'll start to feel it slip a little. That's when you want to start driving it harder. Then, it will seat and at that point it will actually GLAZE a little and turn brown, and that's what you want. See, let's say you go out right away and drive it really hard - then it's going to turn black and go almost charcoal-ly. Then it's ruined forever."
So it seems to me that the point is controlled application of heat, which is intended to change the nature of the Kevlar material. If the heat is improperly applied the material is also changed, but in an un-desirable way. Not enough heat and the material is not changed enough, which might as well be the same as not breaking it in at all. Or, in other words, if you break it in properly you heat it up enough slowly enough, you will glaze it properly such that it can withstand sudden heat (blow off ricer boy civic at the stoplight) in the future. That would be my theory. It's only a theory.
The kevlar material itself is paper thin so I can believe that there is a narrow window, somehow somewhere. It's reallllly thin. Since it's benefit is to last forever, I can see how it must be perfect, clearly it hardly wears away, if you screw it up there's no more of it to wear away to get to good stuff underneath the bad stuff.
As to how you can drive it after it's broken in, still no one will discuss specifics. What would those be anyway, that issue is so subjective. But I think that the kind of clutch slippage you'd do at the dragstrip to get the very very best 1/4 mile possible is not a good idea. And somewhere between that and zero slippage is the "charcoal" point of Kevalr, and I hope I don't find it. ".
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Some guys mention "glazing" as the main problem of a ruined kevlar clutchplate.
Seems to me that the CC engagement of the clutch makes it very hard to find the right way of breaking in.
Still wondering why the Ferraris dó work with the kevlar clutch.
Seems to me that the CC system is to difficult to obtain the desired procedure for breaking in correctly.
Here is one of the stories i found about this subject:
"yeah I got one of those instruction sheets too.
Here's what the guy who rebuilt it said, specifically referring to "breaking in" vs "seating":
"You want to take it real easy. Then, after time goes by (sounded like he meant SUFFICIENT time - onramp), you'll start to feel it slip a little. That's when you want to start driving it harder. Then, it will seat and at that point it will actually GLAZE a little and turn brown, and that's what you want. See, let's say you go out right away and drive it really hard - then it's going to turn black and go almost charcoal-ly. Then it's ruined forever."
So it seems to me that the point is controlled application of heat, which is intended to change the nature of the Kevlar material. If the heat is improperly applied the material is also changed, but in an un-desirable way. Not enough heat and the material is not changed enough, which might as well be the same as not breaking it in at all. Or, in other words, if you break it in properly you heat it up enough slowly enough, you will glaze it properly such that it can withstand sudden heat (blow off ricer boy civic at the stoplight) in the future. That would be my theory. It's only a theory.
The kevlar material itself is paper thin so I can believe that there is a narrow window, somehow somewhere. It's reallllly thin. Since it's benefit is to last forever, I can see how it must be perfect, clearly it hardly wears away, if you screw it up there's no more of it to wear away to get to good stuff underneath the bad stuff.
As to how you can drive it after it's broken in, still no one will discuss specifics. What would those be anyway, that issue is so subjective. But I think that the kind of clutch slippage you'd do at the dragstrip to get the very very best 1/4 mile possible is not a good idea. And somewhere between that and zero slippage is the "charcoal" point of Kevalr, and I hope I don't find it. ".
================================================== =========================================
Some guys mention "glazing" as the main problem of a ruined kevlar clutchplate.
Seems to me that the CC engagement of the clutch makes it very hard to find the right way of breaking in.
Still wondering why the Ferraris dó work with the kevlar clutch.
What about a Kevlar 6 speed clutch?
Has anyone put a kevlar clutch in their 6 speed? If so how's it going for you? I'm at 62,000 miles on the original clutch, and so far so good. But I suspect I will need to do my clutch in the near future. Would go with kevlar if it can perform better than oem. But then again 62,000 miles on an original clutch aint too shabby!
Has anyone put a kevlar clutch in their 6 speed? If so how's it going for you? I'm at 62,000 miles on the original clutch, and so far so good. But I suspect I will need to do my clutch in the near future. Would go with kevlar if it can perform better than oem. But then again 62,000 miles on an original clutch aint too shabby!
I believe kevlar clutches were meant for manuals (or hard on/off F1's). The clutch is probably confusing the hell out of the TCU because there is no real slip (which is what kills our clutches to begin with). That TCU programming on the CC is goofy enough without the added grab of the kevlar.
Sorry to hear about this... we have several customers that have had failed attempts in this conversion asking us to work on a kit for the car. I do believe that it can be done but it will take a bit of time and programming to really sort it all out. We don't have immediate plans to get on this as we have several other priority projects we're developping on... but I'll definitely keep it on the list as it seems that there are a decent amount of owners that would like to see this work. The real question will be that even if it does work... does this actually produce better results in either power holding ability for those who up the horsepower or in a longer lasting clutch.
So far the best course of action is to replace with factory parts and be sure that the installer takes the time to get everything calibrated / adjusted properly. Then break-in the clutch a bit and if possible, recalibrate the clutch after 500-1000 miles. Few shops are willing to take the time to get it right and this includes both the factory, the factory dealers and independants. I think that when these procedures are carried out properly and time is taken that the clutches last much longer.
Best Regards,
-- Jeff
So far the best course of action is to replace with factory parts and be sure that the installer takes the time to get everything calibrated / adjusted properly. Then break-in the clutch a bit and if possible, recalibrate the clutch after 500-1000 miles. Few shops are willing to take the time to get it right and this includes both the factory, the factory dealers and independants. I think that when these procedures are carried out properly and time is taken that the clutches last much longer.
Best Regards,
-- Jeff
Hi jeff, for me its the possibility of increased longevity thats the key to Kevlar, the fact that the bite is that much more aggressive is an added bonus but i should imagine an acquired taste and preference
My GS clutch is now on 37k miles, with only very minor slippage that can be easily controlled/prevented , so in the great scheme of things not bad at all , but im sure that is down to the way i drive the car, i think with the added longevity of an installed kevlar clutch one could drive reasonably care free with less emphasis on clutch preservation not saying i want to blat about reversing 2 miles up a steep hill, all the time , but when you see $500 chav corsa drivers with 100k miles on the clock driving and wheel spinning like nutters, its extremely frustrating that its costing you a good percentage of your clutch life if you were to mirror it JMHO
regards loz
My GS clutch is now on 37k miles, with only very minor slippage that can be easily controlled/prevented , so in the great scheme of things not bad at all , but im sure that is down to the way i drive the car, i think with the added longevity of an installed kevlar clutch one could drive reasonably care free with less emphasis on clutch preservation not saying i want to blat about reversing 2 miles up a steep hill, all the time , but when you see $500 chav corsa drivers with 100k miles on the clock driving and wheel spinning like nutters, its extremely frustrating that its costing you a good percentage of your clutch life if you were to mirror it JMHO
regards loz
loz, how are u at 37k on ur clutch. i just had mine checked todat and with 3k on a new clutch i have 19% wear and i take it easy too. do u drive alot of highway?? right now im wishing i would have went with a manual 6speed
Jeff, what about the possibility of upgrading, or modifing the DBW. Or something of that nature that would give us a much quicker shift, thus longer clutch life.
I have two possible/potential solutions to this:
1.) Heat-treat the surface of the Kevlar clutch material... if part of the key to getting the "right" degree of slippage without glazing is the key, then heat treating the surface in a few varying degrees prior to install might work. This could, of course be time-consuming, and therefore somewhat expensive/experimental at first, until the right combination or process was hit upon.
2.) Add a single, thin layer of normal/stock-type clutch material on top of the kevlar... as this layer wears away, the surface of the kevlar would GRADUALLY be exposed to heat in a manner that could possibly avoid glazing. In this case, I don't even know if this would be possible or practical, but WTF, I'm just spitballin' here.
1.) Heat-treat the surface of the Kevlar clutch material... if part of the key to getting the "right" degree of slippage without glazing is the key, then heat treating the surface in a few varying degrees prior to install might work. This could, of course be time-consuming, and therefore somewhat expensive/experimental at first, until the right combination or process was hit upon.
2.) Add a single, thin layer of normal/stock-type clutch material on top of the kevlar... as this layer wears away, the surface of the kevlar would GRADUALLY be exposed to heat in a manner that could possibly avoid glazing. In this case, I don't even know if this would be possible or practical, but WTF, I'm just spitballin' here.
Kevlar update
First of all Classic Coach is replacing the Kevlar clutch with a new OEM one at their cost . Secondly I was very gentle on the Kevlar clutch never giving it full throttle but occasionally giving it moderate acceleration to avoid dangerous situations. It seemed to have more power in gears 3-6. The slippage continued to deteriorate as I came close to 1000 miles on the car 65% highway. The clutch became harsh over time, it stalled in reverse I gave the car to CC for 5 days for them to drive and calibrate they came to the conclusion it didn't work We are all disappointed . I expect the car back Saturday
First of all Classic Coach is replacing the Kevlar clutch with a new OEM one at their cost . Secondly I was very gentle on the Kevlar clutch never giving it full throttle but occasionally giving it moderate acceleration to avoid dangerous situations. It seemed to have more power in gears 3-6. The slippage continued to deteriorate as I came close to 1000 miles on the car 65% highway. The clutch became harsh over time, it stalled in reverse I gave the car to CC for 5 days for them to drive and calibrate they came to the conclusion it didn't work We are all disappointed . I expect the car back Saturday
Jeff, i agree with you. I think the DBW will increase life of the clutch as well, but not that much. What I was asking is if you can improve the DBW or come up with something else that will make a substantial difference in clutch life. Im sure everyone here would put it at the top of their buy list.
I think at this point, it's all down to the design of the clutch in the car.
Best Regards,
-- Jeff
Best Regards,
-- Jeff
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