F1 is more fun,but has a wear item in the clutch so the upkeep is much higher..The ZF box is pretty much gonna be like your BMWs..F1 in a Granturismo is pretty rare..I have only worked on two and we fix a lot of cars....Jason

 

honestly go with the F1 you have a 599 tranny inside a beautifully designed car, its the best of both worlds... and for some reason my F1 stock seems alot louder then the MC sport models i hear... the shifts and downshifts and crackles you get are exactly like driving a 6 speed manual car, wont get that from the boring ZF... its the maintenance that scares everyone away from it but i have 33k miles on mine and i still have 67% clutch life left, get it PPI and they can run it and then you can decide

 

.. the shifts and downshifts and crackles you get are exactly like driving a 6 speed manual car, wont get that from the boring ZF...

Whilst I will agree that driving the F1 may indeed be considerably more fun than the ZF, with all due respect, there is no way no how is it “exactly” like driving a fully manual car .. nothing can possibly match that, iMHO . I’ve driven what is arguably the most advanced transmission out there ( Porsche’s PDK ) and in spite of it shifting seamlessly and lightning-fast , it terms of feedback driving sensation and fun factor it does not even hold a candle to my six speed stick shift / pedal clutch manual Porsche . For a big touring car like ours, I think the transmission is even less important but if you do want that extra “ kick “, and are not concerned about the reported issues , whether valid or not , the F1 is surely more fun, but just not sure it’s worth giving up a nice ZF you might find, to hold out until you come up on a F1 which is a lot rarer ..especially in the US.

 

It really depends on your location. In North America, the GT was only available in 2009 with the F1 transmission.

 

F1 has wear issues especially when it is driven in city traffic a lot. It is more at home on the track. It would be a mistake to pass on a good ZF. F1 may be a bit more fun, but that doesn't mean the ZF is a slouch. In manual sport mode with paddle shifters the ZF is more than most drivers can handle. Either is a great choice.

 

Do not buy the F1 if you don't know how to drive a stick shift.


All the comments that the F1 transmission sucks are from people who only drive automatics and don't understand the F1 transmission. These are the same people who will drive up or down a ramp slowly, or drive in full automatic mode and complain about the jerkiness etc.


If you prefer driving manuals to automatics then the F1 is a great choice. It's far more engaging and aggressive.

 

I absolutely agree

 

F1 is only avail in the US for 2009. Yes its more engaging than sitting in Auto and a bit faster but its quite expensive to maintain and requires such maintenance far more frequently compared to the ZF. Also, comparing the fun/feeling of a paddle shift of any sort to a true manual is a bit of a stretch. No clutch peddle involvement and no rowing of the shifter. Both are actions I miss GREATLY in my GT and no finger clicking paddle will remedy that. I am fairly certain that most of us that own the GT spend the majority of our time in Manual mode, not Auto as suggested, so there is still involvement without the cost concerns.

 

Indeed !!

 

Completely different car with the F1 tranny. To each his own but, truly, a completely different car. Drive both and decide. This is, obviously, a question of preference. I will NEVER convince anyone that my F1 is better than their ZF (and vice versa). And neither of us would be right or wrong.
And regarding maintenance cost, the OP already has experience with that (currently has a GS Duo). In my experience, if you maintain the thing properly, it'll treat you well. And we get a lot more mileage out of them than the previous generation.

 

If you do decide to hunt down an f1 trans just search 2009 granturismo and look at interior pics to see if it has the buttons. I’ve come across many f1’s listed for sale on internet few years back but many don’t advertise them as such. Not sure how many on the market currently but couple years ago there was many to choose from in the 30-45k range. Pros and cons to both versions and no matter which model I have I’ll always think about the one I don’t have.

 

If you do decide to hunt down an f1 trans just search 2009 granturismo and look at interior pics to see if it has the buttons. I’ve come across many f1’s listed for sale on internet few years back but many don’t advertise them as such.

Interesting. For such a rare car, many of the 2009s I just searched had the F1. And none of them were advertised as such. Great idea.

 

I feel the F1 transmission in the Granturismo with its slow switching times as misplaced and annoying. A bad gearbox in the wrong car. The Granturismo is a heavy car, at the end of the day a real "Granturismo", the ZF transmission fits much better to the character of this car. There are good reasons why the F1 gearbox is no longer used.

 

It's no longer used in the North American cars... but it was used far into the current decade in the worldwide market for Granturismos. Not sure if or when it was ever phased out.

 

The F1 gearbox found in the GT-S, 2009 model in the USA is from the Ferrari 599GTB, it's no slouch but it also is a bit rougher than some will like. This is especially true in the North American Market where owners seem to prefer the lower maintenance and smoother nature of the Auto Gear Box.

Best advice is always to just drive it and see which you prefer. We love the F1 gearbox personally, especially when mated with the Drive By Wire Enhancement we offer for the car. Good maintenance is key as well on these models. If the car was well taken care of, you're going to see a better performing car where the Auto transmission cars mostly feel the same but also do very well.

Hope that helps!

 

I love the Duoselect transmission. It shifts three times faster than I could in a manual, and also I am not interested in operating a clutch pedal anymore. I had a Porsche 944 5-speed for 12 years as my daily driver, I don't want to row gears and use the clutch pedal in city traffic anymore. I also love the perfect launch control it does no matter how much gas you give, and it gets really fun when you turn off MSP because then there is no traction control.

 

I also no longer like a clutch pedal I'm now too used to a robotised manual (F1).

My next daily driver will be an automatic. I will always consider a manual in other cars (i.e manual aircooled 911 in place of a sportomatic 911)

I've not yet tried turning of the MSP i will have to try that.

 

Sean, do you always drive in Sport Manual?

If you shift gear at lower rpm's and throttle openings, is it still pretty slow shifting... in Sport Manual?

 

I always drive in Sport mode, and Manual 95% of the time. I occasionally use auto-shifting for the convenience. I find the shifting speed is never slow, especially in comparison to what a person could do. A friend of mine has a Dodge Challenger R/T 6-speed and riding with him is like riding in a farm truck. Each shift is almost painfully slow to watch him do, since I am used to the way the QP shifts.

 

The F1 gearbox is awesome when driven as intended (manual, sport, aggressive). In order to get the fastest shift mode you need to be at >85% throttle and above 5500rpm, then you get the 100ms shifts. FYI the Duoselect upshift time is 250-300ms, almost 3X slower.


The F1 gearbox is identical to the one in the Ferrari 599 GTB and at the time of release was the fastest shifting road car gearbox in the world. You can read about it here https://auto.ferrari.com/en_EN/sports-cars-models/past-models/599-gtb-fiorano/


That said, under normal (slow) driving in Automatic mode it sucks terribly, you and your passenger's head will bop back and forth with each shift.

 

It seems to me that regardless of what kind of car you are driving, you will certainly not be driving like Joe-Racer THAT much of the time... and so, unless you can master the DuoSelect or the CambioCorsa or the F1 (by way of throttle let-off-relative to paddle-pull / throttle resumption timing and roll-on versus quick, sharp rtn action)... and you put up with the delay in acceleration associated with this slow-shifting... well, it could be vexing. When I drive my 6MT and I am the only person in the car, well, I anticipate my shifts, I control just how fast the shift is accomplished... and my head does not bob 'cause I can well-anticipate the let-off in acc. and the resumption in acc. Not so with a passenger... but I can manipulate throttle, clutch, shifter, so it is at least smooth. When it comes to a roboticized manual like the aforementioned Magnetti Marelli / Graziano transaxles - you need to anticipate what the automated clutch actuation will be, what the shift actuator will do, and what the electronic throttle will do (notwithstanding your being able to actuate the throttle yourself). When you learn, under varying conditions, how the system will behave, you can compensate with your backing off and re-introducing throttle to work with the automated functions... and all will be fairly smooth... assuming you are good with your muscle-learning... and assuming you are a particularly coordinated individual. Lots of ifs. Hard to do, I would say. But it CAN be done.

Much simpler for a human being to operate the clutch and gearstick...and so I still maintain that these automated-manual 'boxes are harder to learn than a regular M/T.

 

I really don't know why some of you have so much to say about the F1 transmission in GT. I have it, and it is really great for me. OK it is really slow when not in sport mode, but I drive 98% of time in sport mode, even when I'm not driving agressivly, because of sound and shifting is really good. I have tried also the car with ZF when buying, but the F1 is really much more involving. OK, for mainly city driving ZF would be better choice, but GT is not menat to be city driven most of the time. It becomes alive on an open roads.
I have also tried some double clutch boxes, like Porsche PDK, Nissan GTR, but the F1 from GTS is much more involving when shifting. The double clutch boxes are great, but for me they don't give you the sporty feeling which you have with F1 on sport mode. Manual would be also good choice in GTS, but I'm not sure it would be better than F1. And I drive my GTS, than an Audi automatic and a manual box all the time, so I know how to drive manual box.
And for doing with throttle - it is in user manual, that you should not lift off when changing, and for me this is the best strategy. Changing is the best when you just do nothing with throttle when changing, because the computer knows exactly what to do, as the parameters are not changing during shifting. Maybe just at really low speeds you can lift off a little bit.

 

If you wanted to up-change at 2500 rpm and light throttle (but in Sport mode) would it benefit you from a smoothness perspective to lift throttle a bit when changing gear?

 

On a modern car you don't really need to lift the throttle to help shifting...Auto or F1....The engine ECM is in communication with the transmission module..The ECM gets a request shift command from the TCM then the engine module retards the ignition timing briefly to reduce engine output for a smoother shift...Jason

 

I absolutely love the GTS for what it is ; a spectacularly beautiful, luxurious , solid, comfortable, magnificent sounding exhaust note and a perfectly fast enough TOURING automobile, arguably unmatched in its class ...with the exception of the DB 11 . ( not using just speed as a criteria otherwise a few other cars may be in there, but they’re all ugly , IMO , or others are just 2+ 2 ..two baby seats in the back ) But, as fantastic as this car is, by no stretch of the imagination can it be called a sports car. IMO you can’t even really call it a “sporty“ car. As pointed in prior posts it’s a very heavy car, and while that has its benefits , the handling / cornering is barely mediocre, and a F1 transmission in it may give you the placebo effect of driving a sports car, but that’s about all. BlackMasi brought up the HP comparison, and whilst 460 HP and 380 torque of the GTS is ostensibly impressive, more importantly is the power to weight ratio. Our car is about 10:1 . The 430 Scuderia , the 599, etc are ( I think ) around 6:1 or 7:1 . That’s a huge difference . Some McLarens are < 4:1. Those are sports cars ! So IMHO, the ZF transmission is perfect for what our car is meant to be, and it can accommodate just about every driving style, and what the car is capable of .. an F1 is really misplaced in the GTS, and the incremental difference in shifting fun it may offer is really inconsequential vs. the ZF’s paddle shift which already gives you probably 90 % of the effect you want . That’s alsmost like having a stick shift in a Bentley ..what would you get out of that ? :|

 

I absolutely love the GTS for what it is ; a spectacularly beautiful, luxurious , solid, comfortable, magnificent sounding exhaust note and a perfectly fast enough TOURING automobile, arguably unmatched in its class ...with the exception of the DB 11 . ( not using just speed as a criteria otherwise a few other cars may be in there, but they’re all ugly , IMO , or others are just 2+ 2 ..two baby seats in the back ) But, as fantastic as this car is, by no stretch of the imagination can it be called a sports car. IMO you can’t even really call it a “sporty“ car. As pointed in prior posts it’s a very heavy car, and while that has its benefits , the handling / cornering is barely mediocre, and a F1 transmission in it may give you the placebo effect of driving a sports car, but that’s about all. BlackMasi brought up the HP comparison, and whilst 460 HP and 380 torque of the GTS is ostensibly impressive, more importantly is the power to weight ratio. Our car is about 10:1 . The 430 Scuderia , the 599, etc are ( I think ) around 6:1 or 7:1 . That’s a huge difference . Some McLarens are < 4:1. Those are sports cars ! So IMHO, the ZF transmission is perfect for what our car is meant to be, and it can accommodate just about every driving style, and what the car is capable of .. an F1 is really misplaced in the GTS, and the incremental difference in shifting fun it may offer is really inconsequential vs. the ZF’s paddle shift which already gives you probably 90 % of the effect you want . That’s alsmost like having a stick shift in a Bentley ..what would you get out of that ? <img src="http://www.maseratilife.com/forums/images/MaseratiLife_2014/smilies/tango_face_plain.png" border="0" alt="" title="Serious" class="inlineimg" />

Eh, the cars you listed are firmly in "supercar" territory, and that McLaren is a hypercar. I realize there are old, objective, parameters which a car must meet in order to be considered, but from a power to weight ratio standpoint, consider this... the 90's era Miatas are knocking on the door of 20:1 power to weight ratio.

 

You're probably right with your comments. Hehe early Bentleys WERE considered sports cars and did have manual 'boxes ? ... in fact so did Rolls Royces, I think, before 1954 ? .

 

True, and yeah back in the old days pretty much every car came with a stick shift.. However, if one looks up the definition of a “ sports car “ in the dictionary or in automotive books, it can only have two seats max. , it can only be a convertible, it can only have a stick shift , I can’t remember the weight ratio but that’s in there also, and so on. Hmm, I think they need to update those definitions to catch up with modern times :wink2:

 

Yeah pretty weird that terminology utilized is “ power to weight “ , but the ratio referenced is the reverse of that .. never undrestood why.
I also heard the it’s a roadster not a sports car “ correction “ from a few folks.. and heaven forbid you should refer to their car as a “ convertible “ , those could be fighting words :wink2:, and calling it a roadster is the only way to calm them down :grin2:.
MG - absolutely a sports car ! In fact, it has always been considered to be the classic, purest definition of what a sports car is, and probably the first car that rolls off the tongue of automotive fanatics when you ask them to give you examples of sports cars .

 

It's been my privilege to take a few rides in old MGs when I was a kid! My brother had an MG Midget when I was about 11... he took me for a ride one day and we ran out of gas... kind of silly. I also took a ride in a classic MG B owned by a friend in the late 1980s. You could still see quite a few of those cars in the 1980s... now they are rare as platinum, I honestly don't think I've ever seen one in Fresno in 10 years.

 

A friend of mine in SoCal used to build track cars out of MGs, I think he said he converted about 25 to 30 of those before he sold the business and moved on to other things ..like designing super chargers for Porsches . But he indicated the MGs were so good at racing even in stock form, that upgrading them into race cars didn’t require a monumental effort . He loved those MGs and maintains to this day they may still be the best and most inspiring sports car. Anyway, I’ve gone way of track here ( no pun intended ) , now returning back to the F1 vs. ZF topic ...0

 

IMO the best available video on YouTube about the Granturismo, this gentleman brings the purpose of this car perfectly to the point. All that he has said is still valid today.

Regarding the ZF-Gearbox; listen from 5'15". Nothing to add from my side.

 

IMO the best available video on YouTube about the Granturismo, this gentleman brings the purpose of this car perfectly to the point. All that he has said is still valid today.

Regarding the ZF-Gearbox; listen from 5'15". Nothing to add from my side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9wvP3p56vc

Yeah I have seen this many times. Great accurate review.
Love the "justification" comment.....so true.

 

This is what can happen when someone who doesn't know how to drive stick drives an automated-manual (the Aventador's gearbox is the same kind of tech as the Ferrari F1/Maserati Cambiocorsa):

 

I honestly don't understand what these people are doing to "burn the clutch out" in heavy traffic. I live in California and daily-drive my car to work, and sadly it sees heavy traffic most of the time. I have no problem with my clutch in this circumstance. Not to say it will last that long as I've already used 33% of a new clutch in 10,000 miles, but still, it is basically fine. As my shop owner advised, "keep it fully engaged or disengaged, not slipping if at all possible." I drove a Porsche 5-speed for many years so I fully understand what this means and it is pretty easy to do this. Sometimes in a traffic jam, people behind me wonder why I am not inching forward and just sit there stopped for a while but too bad for them, we will all get there eventually! I know I have to go 10 miles per hour minimum or I don't move. But seriously how far did this poor Aventador go to burn out the clutch from 72%? Only 100 miles? You would have to seriously try to accomplish this feat. I would hate to see that melted flywheel.

 

I have driven both on the road and on the race track and would never consider or recommend the ZF automatic! Two different cars entirely!


1) The F1 has more nimble handling characteristics - due to more favorable weigh distribution.
2) The F1 is leaps and bounds more engaging and provides a more visceral driving experience.
3) The F1 is faster (from a standing start to xx km/h and also as far as gear shifts are concerned - less than 100 ms!).
4) The F1 is more emotional due to better sound signature -especially at low speeds and downshifts- as a result of different ignition timing.


And last but not least, from personal experience my clutch lasted 100.000 Km! Granting clutch change costs 4 - 5 K it is definitely worth the 5 cents / Km investment! If you plan to sell the car before driving that much mileage on it you will have zero clutch maintenance costs.


I have to say, the F1 clutch is indeed misunderstood by most and is certainly the best clutch for the car beyond doubt. Cannot agree with comments saying it is overkill for the car because it DOES make a HUGE difference to the car experience BOTH on the road and on the track! It literally transforms the car. I feel the ZF box is misplaced on it.


I think most people underrate the F1 because they test drive it in AUTO NORMAL mode. It is meant to be driven in MANUAL SPORT mode all the time to really see the benefits.