Guys, I wanted to ask because it takes a bit of work and I am already posting in the information on the UK forum. Would you guys like me to post a detailed account of an F1 clutch removal and replacement? I will cover the thrust bearing and F1 sensor magnet as well. I just don't want to do it if people are not interested. I know most take their cars in.
Detailed F1 clutch removal and replacement (4200)
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Craig
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If you want I will contact a gentleman from California who runs a Mas. dealership. Mine would have been $1170 through eurospares with shipping. Eurospares was the cheapest I could find anywhere, and he did better for me because he wanted the business. Total for the clutch pack $1100...... shipping was $10. I also got the spigot bearing or pilot bearing for $30 through him with no shipping...... he sent it with the clutch pack. Let me know what you need and I will get a price quote from him. If you're happy with it I will connect you to him and step out of the way. If your not then of course you lose nothing. But since he's on the West Coast with you, he can get it to you much quicker.
Here's the thing on my research with clutches. It's not the friction discs per se that I found I wanted to avoid. Though I've heard guys say the spring retainers on the clutch disc have broke. This was really rare though. It's more the single tang PP......... I wanted to purchase a double tang PP. The problem for me was the cheapest I could find them were almost $1800, and it wasn't for our specific models of Mas. So I decided to go with the part number for my car. The PP collapses with the single tang aren't really numerous. But there are reports of it happening. The double tang one I haven't heard of any reports, but this could be because they aren't as numerous as the single tang. That's why I wanted a double tang PP......The thrust bearing issue was a little more common like what Larry had replaced at 10K. These TB failures I have also heard happening in the F1 (DuoSelect models) Quattroportes. Therefore I went with Hill Engineering and though that should have been more expensive I shipped it over and it was cheaper than the OEM ones Mas. has. I also see other places carrying Hill Engineering TB now too because of the TB issues.
So long story short, I went stock everything but the TB. I figured since I'm putting it in, I can warranty it ROFL!!!
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Balance ratios for FlyWheel, and Pressure Plate
Okay guys wanted to stay on top of the thread and post the balance data since I retrieved the FlyWheel, Pressure Plate from the balance shop today. Here is a photo of the information I had him write down. We had a pretty long conversation about the ins and outs of this. Basically what he stated is that as it sat with opposing marks from each other it might be okay from a stock perspective. Like a stock car, Chevy, Ford or daily driver. Actually he stated it would of been closer to 15 grams @ 230 degrees for them. But for a high performance car, and you can see what he balanced it to ( 2.2 grams @248 degrees). He wouldn't advise it. So the long and short of it is this.
From what I can see in the data you definitely should balance them. The shops that were assembling them with it unbalanced were, in my opinion, dancing on the line. Additionally, we talked about balancing the FW-PP, in the car itself, again it's an internally balanced motor he was of the same opinion. You'll never know any of it is on there when it's balanced correctly off the car. He re-balanced the flywheel separately before putting them both together. The factory flywheel was balanced to 4.4 grams @72 beforehand, he balanced it to 1 gram @93 degrees. Either way, I am glad I took it over. I also retrieved the gear box from the shipping company today. I'm ready for re-assembly after changing out the Pilot bearing.
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Okay guys wanted to stay on top of the thread and post the balance data since I retrieved the FlyWheel, Pressure Plate from the balance shop today. Here is a photo of the information I had him write down. We had a pretty long conversation about the ins and outs of this. Basically what he stated is that as it sat with opposing marks from each other it might be okay from a stock perspective. Like a stock car, Chevy, Ford or daily driver. Actually he stated it would of been closer to 15 grams @ 230 degrees for them. But for a high performance car, and you can see what he balanced it to ( 2.2 grams @248 degrees). He wouldn't advise it. So the long and short of it is this.
From what I can see in the data you definitely should balance them. The shops that were assembling them with it unbalanced were, in my opinion, dancing on the line. Additionally, we talked about balancing the FW-PP, in the car itself, again it's an internally balanced motor he was of the same opinion. You'll never know any of it is on there when it's balanced correctly off the car. He re-balanced the flywheel separately before putting them both together. The factory flywheel was balanced to 4.4 grams @72 beforehand, he balanced it to 1 gram @93 degrees. Either way, I am glad I took it over. I also retrieved the gear box from the shipping company today. I'm ready for re-assembly after changing out the Pilot bearing.
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10,434 Posts
300.00 bucks to balance that? Tell them its for a `85 BMW next time and they`ll charge you 1/2 as much...That is way too much money to get something balanced that came balanced...J
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Jason I know buddy, believe me, I know it. It's the only place I could find. Ironically I tried not to tell them what car it was from. I was pretty upset with what he charged me. I called quite a few places until I went to these guys and it took me 45 mins to drive there. For whatever reason, the guys close to me cut fly wheels but they don't balance anything. I mean down South it's all about racing.... up here in Boston not so much. Actually you have to drive to New Hampshire just to get on a track. Either way it is what it is. I never tell people what car it is. He's balanced a couple from High end cars and he knew it right away. It's good in that he knew what he was doing, bad in that he also knew I wouldn't walk away without having it done right. If I could find someone else to do it I definitely would have, the guy that cut the fly wheel might of been cantankerous but at least he didn't try to hit me with crazy prices. If I do it again.....not mine but a friend wants me to help believe me if I have to drive down to Rhode Island or send it out I will probably do that.
Btw I do appreciate you making me feel worse about it rofl! Only thing missing now is for Dave to come along....ha ha!
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3,431 Posts
Well, you asked for it...
You know he put "Maserati/Ferrari" so he could slip in a little deeper. :cheers:
Let me guess, you also said you were in a hurry and you would wait there for him to do it.
Check your PM
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2,355 Posts
I can neither confirm nor deny the allegations against me at this time!
I should of told him to take $100 off for mis-spelling Maserati! He was telling me this story about how he was following a Quattroporte but he kept pronouncing it like there was an "O" on the end instead of the "e" that sounds like "ay". I think I should have deducted something off for that as well. I mean I grew up down South so you know I will mess up some words in a heart beat but not while I'm overcharging some body!
I should of told him to take $100 off for mis-spelling Maserati! He was telling me this story about how he was following a Quattroporte but he kept pronouncing it like there was an "O" on the end instead of the "e" that sounds like "ay". I think I should have deducted something off for that as well. I mean I grew up down South so you know I will mess up some words in a heart beat but not while I'm overcharging some body!
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2,355 Posts
Clutch/PP on arbor
All the crying I did yesterday I forgot to post some photos so the guys (ladies if we have them on the forum), could see what it looks like when done.
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Photos above are of the balance mark so it's put together correctly.
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Photo above is the material removed from the factory to balance just the PP. It's the small metal dot to the left of the blue paint mark.
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Last photo above is the material needing to be removed from the PP to balance both together. This started with first putting the marks opposite from each other (as per service manual), however, he ended up clocking the PP more instead of the recommended 180 degree opposite mark directions because it threw the balance off more by having them opposite from each other. So if the PP and Flywheel were a clock, starting from the original mark on the fly wheel as it sat on the car being at 6 o'clock. The PP most out of balance mark is at the 8 o'clock position not the 12 o'clock position. That according to him was the closest balance before he removed the material and finished balancing it.
All the crying I did yesterday I forgot to post some photos so the guys (ladies if we have them on the forum), could see what it looks like when done.
Photos above are of the balance mark so it's put together correctly.
Last photo above is the material needing to be removed from the PP to balance both together. This started with first putting the marks opposite from each other (as per service manual), however, he ended up clocking the PP more instead of the recommended 180 degree opposite mark directions because it threw the balance off more by having them opposite from each other. So if the PP and Flywheel were a clock, starting from the original mark on the fly wheel as it sat on the car being at 6 o'clock. The PP most out of balance mark is at the 8 o'clock position not the 12 o'clock position. That according to him was the closest balance before he removed the material and finished balancing it.
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2,355 Posts
Pilot bearing removal
Guys I got under the car today to begin getting things back together. First I needed to remove the Pilot/Spigot bearing from the crankshaft:
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I think I broke my pilot bearing puller a while back and forgot so I decided on a home remedy to move the project along. Some use grease but I really don't like to use it because it makes a terrible mess and then you have to clean it up. So instead what I always use is bread! Unfortunately the only bread I could find was garlic, so garlic bread from last night's supper was what I used.
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Continue to pack it in the hole:
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Below I use a 10 mm short socket with extension to pack the bread into the hole because it almost fits perfectly into the center of the pilot bearing. If you use grease you cannot have any space around the socket or it will pressurize and come out.
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So for the new pilot bearing I use a dead blow hammer to hammer it all the way in......remember the writing needs to face out. Next I used a 1" Impact socket that was the same size as the outer rim. After I'm pretty sure it's seated with the dead blow. I tap this socket on top so I can hear the metal to metal clink I'm looking for to know that it's seated all the way as it should be.
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Guys I got under the car today to begin getting things back together. First I needed to remove the Pilot/Spigot bearing from the crankshaft:
I think I broke my pilot bearing puller a while back and forgot so I decided on a home remedy to move the project along. Some use grease but I really don't like to use it because it makes a terrible mess and then you have to clean it up. So instead what I always use is bread! Unfortunately the only bread I could find was garlic, so garlic bread from last night's supper was what I used.
Below I use a 10 mm short socket with extension to pack the bread into the hole because it almost fits perfectly into the center of the pilot bearing. If you use grease you cannot have any space around the socket or it will pressurize and come out.
So for the new pilot bearing I use a dead blow hammer to hammer it all the way in......remember the writing needs to face out. Next I used a 1" Impact socket that was the same size as the outer rim. After I'm pretty sure it's seated with the dead blow. I tap this socket on top so I can hear the metal to metal clink I'm looking for to know that it's seated all the way as it should be.
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2,355 Posts
Fly Wheel install
Next is the Fly Wheel.......like a lug pattern on a wheel you are going to tighten the bolts back into the crank. I do this all the way around in a clock-wise motion working the bolts across from each other. Don't tighten one bolt all the way down to 61 lbs,..... tighten them little by little. Like divide it in half or three times rather.....like 20lbs all the way around, 40lbs all the way around then 61lbs. That way you don't bind anything. I think I might of even of tightened it in smaller intervals. I do them all by hand then, come back with the torque wrench splitting up the torque spec.
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Here's where the original red mark off the fly wheel was supposed to be. I don't think it was important for anything now since it was all balanced separately. I did it more just because than anything else.
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Next is the Fly Wheel.......like a lug pattern on a wheel you are going to tighten the bolts back into the crank. I do this all the way around in a clock-wise motion working the bolts across from each other. Don't tighten one bolt all the way down to 61 lbs,..... tighten them little by little. Like divide it in half or three times rather.....like 20lbs all the way around, 40lbs all the way around then 61lbs. That way you don't bind anything. I think I might of even of tightened it in smaller intervals. I do them all by hand then, come back with the torque wrench splitting up the torque spec.
Here's where the original red mark off the fly wheel was supposed to be. I don't think it was important for anything now since it was all balanced separately. I did it more just because than anything else.
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2,355 Posts
Clutch and PP
Okay sorry I didn't get the photos of this so you'll have to read instead. In the photo below if you remember the 2-5-8 positions was on the original plate. I marked them on the new plate because you are going to use these three bolts initially to snug down the plate with the clutch position tool in the middle so the friction disc is lined up correctly. Use an allen wrench or something similar only to slightly tighten them down. Do not tighten them up too much or it will bind the holes of the rest of the bolts. All of the bolts have to be slightly tightened down in a lug pattern the same as the fly wheel after the initial three. It will be in really small increments, half to 3/4 turns. It will take a little while but what you are preventing here is binding the holes or getting the bolts bound in by tightening them too much at a time. This is even more important than the fly wheel. Also remember when you get close to your torque spec. that it's not that much. To be certain I did not over torque it I Instead of the ft. lbs translated it down to in. lbs my torque wrench for this has a 1/4" drive. 158.4 in lbs is what it should be torque at using in. lbs.
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Next you need to grease the clutch shaft and prepare the bell housing. Once you line up the bolts use the dead blow hammer tapping it on the back to guide it in. If you are having difficulty, once you are sure that the splined clutch shaft is in the correct location, tighten a few nuts opposing each other down. I would shake it, and slap it on the back with the hammer. Tighten it down a bit and do the same thing again. It will come together like this:
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As you can see the starter bolts and all nuts are on. I connected the F1 position sensor, and made sure the ground wire was on as well. Till tomorrow........
Okay sorry I didn't get the photos of this so you'll have to read instead. In the photo below if you remember the 2-5-8 positions was on the original plate. I marked them on the new plate because you are going to use these three bolts initially to snug down the plate with the clutch position tool in the middle so the friction disc is lined up correctly. Use an allen wrench or something similar only to slightly tighten them down. Do not tighten them up too much or it will bind the holes of the rest of the bolts. All of the bolts have to be slightly tightened down in a lug pattern the same as the fly wheel after the initial three. It will be in really small increments, half to 3/4 turns. It will take a little while but what you are preventing here is binding the holes or getting the bolts bound in by tightening them too much at a time. This is even more important than the fly wheel. Also remember when you get close to your torque spec. that it's not that much. To be certain I did not over torque it I Instead of the ft. lbs translated it down to in. lbs my torque wrench for this has a 1/4" drive. 158.4 in lbs is what it should be torque at using in. lbs.
Next you need to grease the clutch shaft and prepare the bell housing. Once you line up the bolts use the dead blow hammer tapping it on the back to guide it in. If you are having difficulty, once you are sure that the splined clutch shaft is in the correct location, tighten a few nuts opposing each other down. I would shake it, and slap it on the back with the hammer. Tighten it down a bit and do the same thing again. It will come together like this:
As you can see the starter bolts and all nuts are on. I connected the F1 position sensor, and made sure the ground wire was on as well. Till tomorrow........
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16 Posts
Hi Craig
Thanks for posting all this info!
I've been reading this thread with great interest as my 2004 Maserati Coupe CC has stopped selecting gear
I suspect my actuator is the culprit, however, I have removed my clutch to rule it out as a possible cause, on inspection the clutch pack appears to be fine, I measured the clutch disc that sits against the flywheel and it is 5.32mm, I have not measured the other disc yet. The SD2 clutch wear readout was 45%, my flywheel has some hotspots but nothing compared to yours.
I am thinking to machine the flywheel considering I have it apart, as well as possibly relining the clutch discs, based on your findings it would appear the disc thickness should be 6.3mm. I would like to also point out that my clutch appears to have been balanced as there are balancing weights and a drill mark on the clutch pack, I am some what concerned that machining the flywheel and relining the discs will throw the balance out, I would like to know you thoughts on this
Thanks
Vince
Thanks for posting all this info!
I've been reading this thread with great interest as my 2004 Maserati Coupe CC has stopped selecting gear
I suspect my actuator is the culprit, however, I have removed my clutch to rule it out as a possible cause, on inspection the clutch pack appears to be fine, I measured the clutch disc that sits against the flywheel and it is 5.32mm, I have not measured the other disc yet. The SD2 clutch wear readout was 45%, my flywheel has some hotspots but nothing compared to yours.
I am thinking to machine the flywheel considering I have it apart, as well as possibly relining the clutch discs, based on your findings it would appear the disc thickness should be 6.3mm. I would like to also point out that my clutch appears to have been balanced as there are balancing weights and a drill mark on the clutch pack, I am some what concerned that machining the flywheel and relining the discs will throw the balance out, I would like to know you thoughts on this
Thanks
Vince
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2,355 Posts
Vince, as long as you mark the Pressure Plate in relation to the flywheel, and the flywheel in relation to the motor, additionally, mark where the counter weights are, and keep them in the order they are in that way you will not have any issues. The clutch friction discs and floater are not balanced with the rest of the assembly, so you don't have to worry about that. Re-surfacing the fly wheel will not change it's balancing because the exact surface material is removed all the way around, and it's a very minute amount, the machine is perfectly centered to the surface of the fly wheel. Did you get on a Leo, or SD2/3 to see if the car was throwing any codes in relation to not shifting into gear?
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Yes, four codes were showing: P0806 clutch position sensor which was stored on the ECU, P1710 clutch position sensor, P1770 engagement with wrong selection and P1772 opposite gear engagement, the last three were stored on the TCU with last code being permanent error
The codes were cleared and haven't come back, a self learn was performed but kept failing about half way through causing the CC light to come on, the gear selections values that came back were no where near the min and max. The F1 pump has been replaced before and the circuit pressure was showing 45.80 bar, I suspect the actuator needs to be bleed and re-centered, or possibly replaced.
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2,355 Posts
okay, yes you definitely covered your bases then. Sorry to hear it brother. It's not one of the finer things of Maserati ownership, but at least you are heading in the right direction. Please let me know if I can help with anything else. I hope to have the torque tube and gear box in this week Lord willing and I will tow it over to the dealership to have the PIS set, and self learn done.
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Thanks Craig, yes its quite frustrating, I was actually hoping to find a broken clutch finger when I pulled the clutch out, that way i would know what the problem is!
I look forward to seeing the rest of the repair on your car
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2,355 Posts
Almost finished!
Okay guys here we go, almost finished. I put the torque tube and gear box in the car today. This is one of those times I kind of wished I had someone around to help. Bench pressing that torque tube and pushing that gear box to the torque tube would have been much easier. So here are a couple of photos I took in the process.
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When I was bleeding the line out I realized that someone must of had some nasty hydraulic fluid in the reservoir from before. Additionally this was also one of those times I wished I had bought the pneumatic bleeder. I forgot all about it until today. It definitely would of been a lot more advantageous for this operation. I bled it out until transparent green pentosin flowed out. Then bled it a bit more.
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and........in the car (view from the trunk).
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Okay guys here we go, almost finished. I put the torque tube and gear box in the car today. This is one of those times I kind of wished I had someone around to help. Bench pressing that torque tube and pushing that gear box to the torque tube would have been much easier. So here are a couple of photos I took in the process.
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2,355 Posts
Another update guys, I put the exhaust in and pretty much finished up (half shafts etc.). I started the car let it warm up, and tried reverse. I know it has the old clutch settings so I didn't try shifting into a bunch of gears, the car engaged reverse without a problem, I gave it a bit of gas and the wheels started spinning no odd noises or anything. As I didn't want to push my luck before I get it over and put it on the computer for self learn and the PIS set I shut her down after putting it in neutral. I emailed Steve at the Aston Martin Dealer to get an appointment about an hour ago. Wanted to let you guys know.
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