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I think history is very important when it comes to a product for which a little more money should be paid than for an absolutely average product. As a big McLaren fan, I have absorbed the entire history of Bruce McLaren, all this knowledge now always rides with me when I drive around in my McLaren. The history of Maserati has also interested me enormously, because the brand also wants to represent something special. Then I want to know what this special thing is. And if it's a sustainable tradition, then it has a certain value for me. Is that a question of age? I don't think so. I know too many young people for whom the history of a luxury brand is very important.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
I don’t think the answer is quite that straight forward…in 2021 Red Bull and Mercedes made between $10-20 million in profit, while the remaining eight teams broke even, roughly. Certainly a bad ROI, and as an investor, I’d never invest based upon the ROI. However, there are related benefits…the transfer of technology, etc., but I also think the status and brand image that can be conveyed and translate into brand recognition and potentially sales. I think that’s a big reason several do it (aside from perhaps an ego component). As for Mazzy (the focus of our discussion), my point is that it would be nice if Stellantis group is going to have an F1 team (Alpha), I think it makes more sense (and personal desire) for it to be under a Mazzy label (since they are positioned above Alpha, they aspire to be Ferrari-like, and they actually have a supercar, the MC20). As for whether it makes financial sense, I’d probably say no (coming from a long financial background), but if I were the CFO at Stellantis, I’d have to say yes (as I’m an enthusiast 😎).
Ok so can you Imagine if Hass became Hass Maserati, you would start seeing a whole lot of the MC20 and Maseratis show up at Monaco. I know it's a bit of a stretch Hass being the U.S. team but man Ferrari, Alfa and, Maserati in F1 at the same time awesome.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
I just remembered Maserati is going to be starting an electric racing program. They had the GT Folgore at an event and stated that they were going racing again probably electric. There goes my F1 dream team of Ferrari, Maserati and Alfa. I don't see them doing both.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I think history is very important when it comes to a product for which a little more money should be paid than for an absolutely average product. As a big McLaren fan, I have absorbed the entire history of Bruce McLaren, all this knowledge now always rides with me when I drive around in my McLaren. The history of Maserati has also interested me enormously, because the brand also wants to represent something special. Then I want to know what this special thing is. And if it's a sustainable tradition, then it has a certain value for me. Is that a question of age? I don't think so. I know too many young people for whom the history of a luxury brand is very important.
You just perfectly explained why the legacy car makers can't be judged using intrinsic value alone. When you by a McLaren car you project the legacy of it's namesake even if you don't know who or what the name represents. By just driving around, people are taking notice. They know the history and what it means sometimes. Even people who don't are in awe of these badges they make people happy just seeing them. Bruce McLaren was a winner that drive to win is what cost him his life. The badge is always going to represent him, best not to discount that. Maserati is the same just different story, Three brothers of very humble means start an automobile company. The fourth brother an artist creates the legendary badge. The Trident of Neptune himself is the artist's influence. The young companies first car the Tipo 26 an instant winner. Driven by Alfieri Maserati himself it had great success. But just one year later Alfieri crashed while racing in the Tipo 26. The accident cost him one of his kidneys and gravely injured him. In 1932 while undergoing a surgery to repair his other kidney he died. The company went on to win the Indy 500 in 1939 and 1940. A fitting tribute to a man who gave everything he had not stopping at his own life for the company that bears his family name. Our badge the Trident means something, something that legends are made of. I am glad to know people still hold tight to and believe in the legends.
 

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Porsche have not forgotten anything the 911 evaluation is scaled very similar when compared to the geological scale. Also just like all German brands, especially VW owned they have no problem watering down their offerings. I struggled putting them in with a boutique class as only one or two of their offerings feel special or exclusive. Where else would you put them, I do think they are less watered down than the other big German brands. I don't know where to put them they make performance cars and one or two exclusive cars but they live on mass market Mid-priced SUV and the new 928 class. As far as making car Toyota, Honda, hell I've had Fords that I absolutely abused last 400,000 miles.
What an interesting time comparison you have made. As a geologist, the attributes for such a time comparison really escapes me. It requires a little more to allow an understanding of its meaning.🤔
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Auto correct evolution not evaluation. Porsche 911 1964- 2022 not much has changed. 60 years in 2024, wind and water erosion a little moss here and there the rock still looks pretty much the same, just like a 911.
Ok what's the best job in the entire auto industry?
Answer: 911 design team member just show up every few years remake either the taillights or the headlights and add 1" inch to the length or rear end width. The go home again for a few more years.
Jokes people just joking🤣
 

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Speaking of time again, of the many attributes that I admire of great automobile marques is that of “ built to last”.
It attracts me especially because of the value and effort that goes into acquiring the materials used to produce them, and the legacy that aspect provides for those companies that have made such products…in this case motor vehicles; but it applies to almost all products in our world today. The emphasis on “built to last” is hardly consistent with the more modern business i.e., the pursuit to make massively profitable companies as quickly as possible and to use as much non-visible junk material as possible to ensure minimal production costs.
I just wonder how many of the badge companies, the subject of these discussions, will have vehicles that will survive the tests of time and be around 100 years from now and still function. Maybe the modern approach is…”who cares, our money is in the bank“ I guess I value a higher quality long lasting product…..being the dinosaur that I probably am.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
Speaking of time again, of the many attributes that I admire of great automobile marques is that of “ built to last”.
It attracts me especially because of the value and effort that goes into acquiring the materials used to produce them, and the legacy that aspect provides for those companies that have made such products…in this case motor vehicles; but it applies to almost all products in our world today. The emphasis on “built to last” is hardly consistent with the more modern business i.e., the pursuit to make massively profitable companies as quickly as possible and to use as much non-visible junk material as possible to ensure minimal production costs.
I just wonder how many of the badge companies, the subject of these discussions, will have vehicles that will survive the tests of time and be around 100 years from now and still function. Maybe the modern approach is…”who cares, our money is in the bank“ I guess I value a higher quality long lasting product…..being the dinosaur that I probably am.
It seems to me like most mass market Mfg's try to get 200k miles out of their cars. That on average is better than older technology, but some old cars used things like cans with rags for oil filters. Also gas was not always good quality. I enjoy America cars and know much of the history behind even defunct brands, some very interesting. Japanese cars are a little different. Toyota simply just copied other cars from all over the world for years. Nissan/ Datsun technically owes it existence to an American William Gorham. He made all there early cars, then they copied for years. Honda is the best story from Japan it's a great story. I actually don't know anything about Korean cars at all, except I don't want one. I don't know how I could rank reliable sports cars they are by nature meant too perform so highly that they just don't last like utilitarian cars. Some " sporty" cars are reliable but they are usually just small slow lite weight cars. Looking at this list I don't think I could rank brands by reliability some models are better than others but that changes year by year. Give us an idea how you would rank these brands by reliability.
 

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My 1938 Buick reached 500,000 miles before I had to have the engine rebuilt. My 1984 Mercedes 380 SEC has reached 260,000 miles. Just examples of what I tend to regard as “built to last”. However, I reluctantly recognise the reality that we now live in an era of disposability, and it irks me that most products are not economically serviceable these days because of high labour costs and in-built obsolesce.
I appreciate that supercars and the like are not designed to last, nor are dragsters but surely it would be smarter not to be wasteful by design on the slightly lesser ranked items. Not sure that gas is now good quality, not at all sure the toxic emissions are tolerable or due to good quality gas. Profit not sustainability is the modern driver it seems to me.
I do understand what compromise means in terms of productivity costs and profit but I fear modern manufacturing is really in a different space.
With regards to ranking marques based on reliability factors, I think that would require multi-factor component analysis to get somewhere near the truth but then personal opinion often overrides facts regardless. It would require a substantial effort but would hold little value in general debate I suspect.
Regardless of all these factors, I still enjoy my Maserati (and the other vehicles in my care) even if it might not last as long as others in my menagerie.Is that my compromise…🤔 😱😎
 
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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
My 1938 Buick reached 500,000 miles before I had to have the engine rebuilt. My 1984 Mercedes 380 SEC has reached 260,000 miles. Just examples of what I tend to regard as “built to last”. However, I reluctantly recognise the reality that we now live in an era of disposability, and it irks me that most products are not economically serviceable these days because of high labour costs and in-built obsolesce.
I appreciate that supercars and the like are not designed to last, nor are dragsters but surely it would be smarter not to be wasteful by design on the slightly lesser ranked items. Not sure that gas is now good quality, not at all sure the toxic emissions are tolerable or due to good quality gas. Profit not sustainability is the modern driver it seems to me.
I do understand what compromise means in terms of productivity costs and profit but I fear modern manufacturing is really in a different space.
With regards to ranking marques based on reliability factors, I think that would require multi-factor component analysis to get somewhere near the truth but then personal opinion often overrides facts regardless. It would require a substantial effort but would hold little value in general debate I suspect.
Regardless of all these factors, I still enjoy my Maserati (and the other vehicles in my care) even if it might not last as long as others in my menagerie.Is that my compromise…🤔 😱😎
When I was younger my brother and I built VW beetle dune buggies and we had a square body bronco with a 302 V8 we blew that up running hot at the sand dunes in Glamis, California. We put a Ford 300/6 in that same truck and no matter what we did to it, it would not die. Best motor ever. But once multiport EFI and DOHC engines started replacing old technology I just couldn't keep up as a mechanic cost wise and tech. I wasn't a mechanic by trade so the tech passed me by. I still love old cars, but the auto industry can never go back to the way it was. The modern world is just to different, companies answer to profit and market share. Not craftsmanship and style. The governments make them incorporate increasingly more safety and environmental regulatory features on modern cars. Hell just 3 years ago all Maserati cars ( all cars) sounded better before the new euro PPF (petro particular filters). We can't go back but we can with our dollars tell them not to destroy our cars. The companies build the cars but we in essence make them, if no one wants them they can't just keep building them. Sorry for the boring life story everyone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
MikeDownunder, regarding reliability just give us your thoughts, no one here is going to hold you the science. You're from a different market that has had some unique cars and unique needs, I for one am genuinely interested in your opinion. I have no doubt McLaren will be high on that list, Bruce McLaren is the best Kiwi driver ever that has to earn the company extra points.
 

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I have to challenge Lexus before Audi. Lexus makes a few decent sports-like cars and a whole lot of boring luxury cars. Nothing that compares to the RS4/5/6/7/8, the R8, or the new GT e-tron. The mid-2000s RS8 with the Lambo engine was a heck of a vehicle.
 

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I recently read a post comparing a 2000's Maserati to a 90's Toyota supra, Needless to say I was perplexed as to how someone could draw such a comparison. It did get me thinking how do people rank Maserati as a brand today?
An Idea of some categorical ranking by History, Mystique, exclusivity, uniqueness, and performance. From highest to lowest. I consider these similar competitive branding levels. Luxury performance could be bigger but starts adding minutiae. After luxury performance level just one off cars by mundane Mfg. (Yes Ford makes the GT but the brand is common car Mfg and Acura NSX, Lexus LFA, many other Mfg make one off cars doesn't change what the brand is).


Hyper cars / 1) Bugatti 2) Pagani 3) Koenigsegg? Newer

Super cars / 1) Ferrari 2) Lamborghini 3) McLaren

Luxury boutique / 1) Rolls Royce 2) Bentley 3) Maybach?

High performance boutique / 1) Aston Martin 2) Maserati 3) Porsche

Luxury performance / 1)Jaguar/Rover 2) Mercedes 3) BMW 4) Lexus 5) Audi / no Idea what order



that's it Maserati 2nd in the high performance boutique class due to Porsche making 50k 718 and 60k macan not to mention 924, 928, 944, 914, and the 912. What do you guys think, ranking wars start now. Try to be nice we all have are own reasons for rating cars.
90’s Supra is worth good money
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
I have to challenge Lexus before Audi. Lexus makes a few decent sports-like cars and a whole lot of boring luxury cars. Nothing that compares to the RS4/5/6/7/8, the R8, or the new GT e-tron. The mid-2000s RS8 with the Lambo engine was a heck of a vehicle.
Yeah in that what I consider just luxury performance I have no idea how to rank them I just listed the brands I would put there. You're right though Audi is also much older of a brand as well, Auto Union originally.
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
90’s Supra is worth good money
Not as much as classic Maserati cars, the 90's supra is just happenstance currently valued highly though. But Toyota is historically a company that just copied cars from other manufacturers for years before they made an original product. They have no legacy in my book just a company that likes money that's not original. They currently don't even make their own sports cars, and the one interesting thing they do make nobody even knows exists the Century.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Just today I heard Maserati announced starting October 1 of 2022 the new Maserati 10yr power train warranty. That should help sales, Best warranty in the Luxury segment by far.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
Speaking of time again, of the many attributes that I admire of great automobile marques is that of “ built to last”.
It attracts me especially because of the value and effort that goes into acquiring the materials used to produce them, and the legacy that aspect provides for those companies that have made such products…in this case motor vehicles; but it applies to almost all products in our world today. The emphasis on “built to last” is hardly consistent with the more modern business i.e., the pursuit to make massively profitable companies as quickly as possible and to use as much non-visible junk material as possible to ensure minimal production costs.
I just wonder how many of the badge companies, the subject of these discussions, will have vehicles that will survive the tests of time and be around 100 years from now and still function. Maybe the modern approach is…”who cares, our money is in the bank“ I guess I value a higher quality long lasting product…..being the dinosaur that I probably am.
MikeDownunder, now that Maserati has a 10yr drivetrain warranty, the highest of any high end luxury Mfg. In fact only Hyundai inc. and Mitsubishi have an equal 10yr warranty on drivetrains. That should move the needle on Maserati dependability, right? Maybe you can rank them higher now?
 

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Not as much as classic Maserati cars, the 90's supra is just happenstance currently valued highly though. But Toyota is historically a company that just copied cars from other manufacturers for years before they made an original product. They have no legacy in my book just a company that likes money that's not original. They currently don't even make their own sports cars, and the one interesting thing they do make nobody even knows exists the Century.
Lexus LFA was a superb automobile
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Lexus LFA was a superb automobile
Yes it was a 300,000 supercar and a short lived one off. The LC500 is a good car as well. Maserati MC 12 and MC20 are better supercars for less. But the LFA was a luxury car also, I can't imagine how much it cost to maintain the LFA, and Lexus has never made anything else. So Lexus is very close to the next level down, But I have given them credit for making the two good cars. Every other Mfg in that category has better history and better sports cars that they offer every year and better one off cars. The other reason for this lower rating is the entry level cars they all make, cheap bad cars that cost to much for what you get.
 

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Yes it was a 300,000 supercar and a short lived one off. The LC500 is a good car as well. Maserati MC 12 and MC20 are better supercars for less. But the LFA was a luxury car also, I can't imagine how much it cost to maintain the LFA, and Lexus has never made anything else. So Lexus is very close to the next level down, But I have given them credit for making the two good cars. Every other Mfg in that category has better history and better sports cars that they offer every year and better one off cars. The other reason for this lower rating is the entry level cars they all make, cheap bad cars that cost to much for what you get.
I agree, too much plastic.
 
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