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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Over stretch on my part same as Ferrari both post very good profit margin just smaller business scale for Ferrari much smaller than the big brother. Porsche is hard to rank or categorize due to some of the things I have stated that's why I seem to be picking on them. It's not my intent to bash Porsche they are the flag bearer of a proper German badge in my opinion that's why I rank them so highly as a badge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I think this is a pretty decent breakdown. I wouldn't strongly argue with any of this. Maserati is trying to get back in the slot you placed them after slipping half, maybe a full tier down when they tried to flood the market with all those lightly optioned, $599 dealer special early model ghiblis. But because of that, I'd put them behind Porsche (for now). Repositioning the brand upmarket and the MC20 helps. Now let's see this new GT.
I bought one of the 2014 Ghiblis but mine was a SQ4 every option except the skyhook and only Harman stereo not the highest level. It did indeed lessen the brand mystique having $78k cars running around with intentionally under powered engines. They should have all been the S engine with 400+ hp minimum. But at that time Porsche was selling The cayenne or boxster for 50k and the boxster S for 62k. When the macan came out in 2015 it came equipped selling for 49k. That is why I rank them lower.


You did mention MC20 and soon to be revealed new Gran Turismo, also every model has a Trofeo high performance option now except MC20. The new issue is the cheap Grecale GT. I hope they limit production of that and force dealerships to stock the higher level Grecale Modena. That would allow customers to order but wait for their cheap Grecale and maybe upgrade to the Modena. That would protect the badge from being watered down. It's to late for Porsche, they are getting closer to the BMW, Mercedes and Audi business model every year that passes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
That’s an interesting discussion, and I agree, nothing to argue about with the ranking. I would say that in a year to 18 months, Maserati could move up a slot, or at least
That’s an interesting discussion, and I agree, nothing to argue about with the ranking. I would say that in a year to 18 months, Maserati could move up a slot, or at least close the gap. In September or so, there’s the new Gracale; next year the MC20 Spyder (Cielo), plus the new GT (being shown next month at Monterey along with the Gracale Trofeo), then there will be the new Lavante (maybe next year), followed by a new Qporte. So there’s a lot of new product, and my feeling is improved product across the board. The next few years will result in a pretty significant reboot. It will be fun to watch.
That’s an interesting discussion, and I agree, nothing to argue about with the ranking. I would say that in a year to 18 months, Maserati could move up a slot, or at least close the gap. In September or so, there’s the new Gracale; next year the MC20 Spyder (Cielo), plus the new GT (being shown next month at Monterey along with the Gracale Trofeo), then there will be the new Lavante (maybe next year), followed by a new Qporte. So there’s a lot of new product, and my feeling is improved product across the board. The next few years will result in a pretty significant reboot. It will be fun to watch.
close the gap. In September or so, there’s the new Gracale; next year the MC20 Spyder (Cielo), plus the new GT (being shown next month at Monterey along with the Gracale Trofeo), then there will be the new Lavante (maybe next year), followed by a new Qporte. So there’s a lot of new product, and my feeling is improved product across the board. The next few years will result in a pretty significant reboot. It will be fun to watch.
Like you said until we see the new Gran Turismo I have to put Maserati just below Aston Martin, and just above Porsche. If they make the new GT competitive with the Aston gt products they get closer. The new MC20 Cielo and MC20 Project24 are going to make it dead even in my book, again if GT is what we think it will be. Once the QP gets a refresh as the solo big 4 door sedan Maserati can make an argument. But again the QP has to be right, I feel like they are getting their crap together after the 90s. The Levante 2nd generation should compete with the DBX and maybe a Trofeo will compete with the new DBX 707. That leaves the Grecale I just hope they don't flood the market with low spec Gt models. The Grecale Modena and Trofeo are fine if you have to sell volume units.
 

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Interestingly, I heard today, Hannah Elliott being interviewed on Bloomberg Masters of Business (a replay), and she talked about Porsche and when they decided to build an SUV (the Cayenne). The purists said it would hurt the brand, dilute it, etc., and I remember those sentiments expressed by people at the time. She then went on to say that it never happened…the 911 buyers kept buying 911’s. So I thought retrospectively, and I realized she was right…I Was the five-generation 911 customer. It didn’t really ever keep me from buying the last two or three generations of 911’s. In fact, it probably made me feel a little better that they had a better financial base with which to develop better 911’s. The fact that certain manufacturers have small bases has made me pause about buying their cars in the past. Now, what does this have to do with Mazzy?

The Gracale is a volume vehicle for Mazzy…there’s no denying it, and they won’t all be Trofeos or Modena versions…think Alpha Stelvio but at a bit higher price and bigger vehicle. Personally, I think this is good (and note, I’m an MC20 owner, and I’m all about Mazzy moving closer to Ferrari as a manufacturer and being exclusive, etc). The reality is that Mazzy needs volume to do everything from developing supercars like the MC20, building new engines, going racing like they are planing , and moving into electric vehicles (a reality we can’t ignore). This all takes volume when your entry-level vehicle isn’t priced at >$200k (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc.). So I think if the Gracale sells well it’s a good thing. I believe that Mazzy wants to move upscale, upscale, upscale, so hopefully they delivery with the Gracale, next-Gen GT, next-Gen Lavante, and next-Gen QP. I’ve always been an admirer of Mazzy, even when the cars were not world-class (the Biturbo for example), but I’ve not been a customer until a year ago (my second car is the MC20), and I’ve been impressed with the vehicles and service. So I’m excited about the Mazzy future…definitely takes time if one aspires to the Ferrari level, but so far, I think the steps are in the right direction.
 

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Porsche forgot more about making cars than Maserati and Aston Martin combined about making them...I like Maserati, but you have to want one honestly to be different than the regular Tom, Dick, or Harry...These other manufactures really do a better job of making cars and providing service...Jason
I agree with Jason. Each manufacturer has strengths and weaknesses. In the broadest sense, German engineering is impressive, Italian design is fabulous, Asian reliability is unmatched, American cars can be a great value (new Corvette, Cadillacs, Mustang GT, Hellcats, etc), British cars offer elegance, etc.
 

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In that respect Maserati is like a grumpy Italian chef: he made the dish, most of it is perfect, and you complaining about the bits you don't like, will have him telling you he doesn't care, that's the way he cooks, you don't understand, and that's final
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Interestingly, I heard today, Hannah Elliott being interviewed on Bloomberg Masters of Business (a replay), and she talked about Porsche and when they decided to build an SUV (the Cayenne). The purists said it would hurt the brand, dilute it, etc., and I remember those sentiments expressed by people at the time. She then went on to say that it never happened…the 911 buyers kept buying 911’s. So I thought retrospectively, and I realized she was right…I Was the five-generation 911 customer. It didn’t really ever keep me from buying the last two or three generations of 911’s. In fact, it probably made me feel a little better that they had a better financial base with which to develop better 911’s. The fact that certain manufacturers have small bases has made me pause about buying their cars in the past. Now, what does this have to do with Mazzy?

The Gracale is a volume vehicle for Mazzy…there’s no denying it, and they won’t all be Trofeos or Modena versions…think Alpha Stelvio but at a bit higher price and bigger vehicle. Personally, I think this is good (and note, I’m an MC20 owner, and I’m all about Mazzy moving closer to Ferrari as a manufacturer and being exclusive, etc). The reality is that Mazzy needs volume to do everything from developing supercars like the MC20, building new engines, going racing like they are planing , and moving into electric vehicles (a reality we can’t ignore). This all takes volume when your entry-level vehicle isn’t priced at >$200k (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc.). So I think if the Gracale sells well it’s a good thing. I believe that Mazzy wants to move upscale, upscale, upscale, so hopefully they delivery with the Gracale, next-Gen GT, next-Gen Lavante, and next-Gen QP. I’ve always been an admirer of Mazzy, even when the cars were not world-class (the Biturbo for example), but I’ve not been a customer until a year ago (my second car is the MC20), and I’ve been impressed with the vehicles and service. So I’m excited about the Mazzy future…definitely takes time if one aspires to the Ferrari level, but so far, I think the steps are in the right direction.
I don't read much of Hannah's works she is a journalist for Bloomberg she writes pieces on luxury boutique brands i.e. watches, leather goods, clothing and cars. She once wrote a piece about why we should all consider loving the Fiat Panda, what? Now Porsche the iconic sports car company, they have a problem. The 911 is their icon since 1964 when it first came out, since 2013 after the recession has not increased sales volume in any significant way other than a one year blip created by an update. That was a small blip. The company know for sports cars now sells 75 percent more 4 door SUVs and sedans.The first full year sales of Taycan out sold 911 by 10,000 units. Keep in mind that car competes with the Panamera. The 911 is iconic but the badge is going to be known for luxury family trucksters oh and a 911. Also people should not forget to play in the realm of mass market, margins are tight just one miss and the whole company suffers for years. The 911 is high mark up high margin, they charge more for low product runs and they can get away with it because of exclusivity. Alfa Romeo was an iconic brand before Porsche was a thing back in the 30s 50s 60s and into the 70s ( no one did anything in the 40s of course). Then the decided to sell lots of cars how did that work out the same could be said for Maserati. They did have financial issues over the years. But the badge was still loved. Then came the 80s they watered down the brand and it was never so close to dying. By the late 1990s Maserati was almost dead. The 2000s resurrected the brand. The badge means something again. I am not a fan of the 911 but I recognize it's significance. Mass market can creat good even great car but they are one off wonders like the Ford GT ,Dodge Viper,Acura NSX it not the norm. If it were where's the amazing Kia, Mazda super car and why do the good car get cancelled. The world can only buy so many expensive car any given year someones going to fail.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Porsche forgot more about making cars than Maserati and Aston Martin combined about making them...I like Maserati, but you have to want one honestly to be different than the regular Tom, Dick, or Harry...These other manufactures really do a better job of making cars and providing service...Jason
Maserati won two Indy 500 before Porsche even though about making a car for themselves. Maserati won the Formula 1 championship in 1957 just 5 years after Porsche opened it's first factory. Aston made it's first car in 1915 but a war happened you may have heard of, the founders went. One in the Navy one in the Army, proper Aston Martin restarted in 1920 so they started essentially two companies before Porsche was a thing and like Maserati lots of financial issues. Ferdinand Porsche didn't start Porsche until 1931, it was a automotive consulting company. He designed the VW for then Nazi Germany and he made a total of 3 model 64 cars. Even Porsche's VW had to be saved by a British Major Ivan Hirst. Hirst and his engineers improved the quality of the car and the production processes. Ferry Porsche made the first Porsche in a 1948 in an old mill the 356. By 1950 they had made 50 or so cars they built the first factory in 1952. The 911 came along in 1964 the same year James Bond first drove an Aston Martin in Gold finger. So both Porsche and Aston Martin made history that year. German cars should be known for good business models and fanatics. Because German reliability is a myth they make many just bad cars and get a pass. German engineering is innovative not reliable. Italian cars companies don't always make good business decision across the board.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
As cars go 80 and 90 are a long time ago. These badges are Iconic the history will always matter. I would love nothing more than a 1954 A6GCS but I could never afford that. Lots of other classic cars as well fall into the category of unattainable. That's why the history will always matter. Ferrari is the only car company to enter every season of Formula 1 it's what they are, you can't just discount that out of convenience. They have more wins than anyone and more losses, Ferrari fan's own that joy and heartbreak. Porsche is the historical KING of Le Mans I won't discount that to make my point. Even if one day Audi dethrones them they are still 19 time winners.
 

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I enjoyed the recap of history, but I’m not sure I follow the main point, other than “history matters?” If that’s the case, I think yes and no. To our generation (those that know a bit of the history), yes. To most 20 to 30 year olds, much less so. In fact, there are many of them that are far more enamored with Teslas than any Masersti, Lamborghini, or Ferrari…partly because they don’t know the history, and by definition, it happened long before they were born, so they don’t really care.

I think Mazzy can move a step down (Gracale) and keep the exclusivity of the MC20. If the Gracale has a $40k version (they don’t) and if Maserati does what Audi did with continually moving down (Q5, Q3, A4, A3, and so on), then yes. It will hurt. At this point, I think the Gracale will help a lot more than hurt (increases brand exposure, provides a more affordable entry point for younger customers, will make dealers and Mazzy more financially sustainable, etc.). It’s too hard to survive (unless you are Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley, Rolls, etc) when your least expensive vehicle (before options) starts at $81k. Everything I see is that they are taking great steps forward.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
I enjoyed the recap of history, but I’m not sure I follow the main point, other than “history matters?” If that’s the case, I think yes and no. To our generation (those that know a bit of the history), yes. To most 20 to 30 year olds, much less so. In fact, there are many of them that are far more enamored with Teslas than any Masersti, Lamborghini, or Ferrari…partly because they don’t know the history, and by definition, it happened long before they were born, so they don’t really care.

I think Mazzy can move a step down (Gracale) and keep the exclusivity of the MC20. If the Gracale has a $40k version (they don’t) and if Maserati does what Audi did with continually moving down (Q5, Q3, A4, A3, and so on), then yes. It will hurt. At this point, I think the Gracale will help a lot more than hurt (increases brand exposure, provides a more affordable entry point for younger customers, will make dealers and Mazzy more financially sustainable, etc.). It’s too hard to survive (unless you are Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley, Rolls, etc) when your least expensive vehicle (before options) starts at $81k. Everything I see is that they are taking great steps forward.
All great points, and I agree But I have concerns. When I was young I didn't care for the past. As time went on interesting parts of lore were slowly revealed. I knew of the Henry Ford II feud with Enzo before the movie, As a Ferrari fan I thought Ford were bullies. The movie made it seem as though the two old men were just pains to deal with. Never thought you could make a movie about that. As far as the young liking Tesla, your correct I think because the other car makers are just getting started with electric. I have a feeling they will catch up in no time. We had all better start liking electric, as it will be taking over soon enough. I agree with you about Gracale as well. However if they do what they did with the 2nd year Ghibli marketing I worry. To me the Grecale is a step above the Macan. I hope it retains it's higher status. If the 2nd year lease deals pop up again on stripped down units we have 2015,2016 Ghibli all over again but worse as this time it's even cheaper. I don't know how many stripped Ghiblis sold in those early years but it was more than half. That's why the Ghibli has a somewhat tarnish name. It's a great car that just got better with time. Regarding your last point though all those companies have been in financial trouble many times. Now that I think about it all the British and Italian car mfg have had financial issues. The Germans are better at business not many money issues there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
And speaking of Ferrari and Formula 1, this morning’s Hungarian GP was a real bummer for them. There will be lots of discussion about strategy.
What strategy hard tires are great if you like slower lap times. 🤔
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Thanks buy the way, I was just recovering from the chest pains caused by watching a car running on white tires while everyone else had yellow and red.
 

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I agree with all those points Joe, and if they try to blow out the Gracale with super cheap leases on base models, that will be reminiscent of the earlier Ghibli debacle. Everything I hear is that Mazzy doesn’t want to do that, so fingers crossed.

As for electric, you’re correct again…we have to get used to it and there’s a lot of product coming from everyone.

I think Mazzy is better positioned today than quite possibly any other time in their history; my wish is to see the Maserati name on a Formula 1 team (Formula-e is a step, as it is racing), and I’d like to see Maserati compete in the Rolex 24 (if not F1). I also wish for the next Lavante (with a version of the MC20 engine) to be on par with the DBX. My last wish is for F1 to not take a summer break (the fans need to see theirs races, LOL).
 
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Car manufactures getting involved with F1 is such a losing deal it isn't funny...Aston has no business there based on their bankruptcy issues time and time again..That is why you don't see Ford, GM, Toyota etc...mess with it....It works for Ferrari I guess, but doesn't help you sell more cars I suspect...Jason
 

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I don’t think the answer is quite that straight forward…in 2021 Red Bull and Mercedes made between $10-20 million in profit, while the remaining eight teams broke even, roughly. Certainly a bad ROI, and as an investor, I’d never invest based upon the ROI. However, there are related benefits…the transfer of technology, etc., but I also think the status and brand image that can be conveyed and translate into brand recognition and potentially sales. I think that’s a big reason several do it (aside from perhaps an ego component). As for Mazzy (the focus of our discussion), my point is that it would be nice if Stellantis group is going to have an F1 team (Alpha), I think it makes more sense (and personal desire) for it to be under a Mazzy label (since they are positioned above Alpha, they aspire to be Ferrari-like, and they actually have a supercar, the MC20). As for whether it makes financial sense, I’d probably say no (coming from a long financial background), but if I were the CFO at Stellantis, I’d have to say yes (as I’m an enthusiast 😎).
 

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Maserati won two Indy 500 before Porsche even though about making a car for themselves. Maserati won the Formula 1 championship in 1957 just 5 years after Porsche opened it's first factory. Aston made it's first car in 1915 but a war happened you may have heard of, the founders went. One in the Navy one in the Army, proper Aston Martin restarted in 1920 so they started essentially two companies before Porsche was a thing and like Maserati lots of financial issues. Ferdinand Porsche didn't start Porsche until 1931, it was a automotive consulting company. He designed the VW for then Nazi Germany and he made a total of 3 model 64 cars. Even Porsche's VW had to be saved by a British Major Ivan Hirst. Hirst and his engineers improved the quality of the car and the production processes. Ferry Porsche made the first Porsche in a 1948 in an old mill the 356. By 1950 they had made 50 or so cars they built the first factory in 1952. The 911 came along in 1964 the same year James Bond first drove an Aston Martin in Gold finger. So both Porsche and Aston Martin made history that year. German cars should be known for good business models and fanatics. Because German reliability is a myth they make many just bad cars and get a pass. German engineering is innovative not reliable. Italian cars companies don't always make good business decision across the board.
A nice look back!
 
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