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My 07 QP 32k never had a variator issue but it would crank what seamed excessively long before starting. I was told that delay was intentional, to ensure sufficient oil pressure before starting. I think the Accusump concept with a delayed start (pressure switch?) is what I’d look at.
 

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Oil Pressure Check Valve

Hi Erik,

sorry to hear that after your expensive variator job the problem returned.



Did they change the oil pressure check valve (part-no. 184681) which is located in the upper half of the camshaft bearing block?



Best regards,



Stefan
 

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Hi Erik,

sorry to hear that after your expensive variator job the problem returned.



Did they change the oil pressure check valve (part-no. 184681) which is located in the upper half of the camshaft bearing block?



Best regards,



Stefan
No. However, since this problem started so early in life, and it's bilateral, I am convinced that something that contributes to both sides must be the culprit.

I will definitely add this to my list though. I will be replacing one thing at a time to ensure I will find the problem and that part (those parts) may be step two.
 

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As far as I understand it from the parts catalogue, there are two hoses from the accumulator to each of the cylinder heads and I can't see any device that keeps the accumulator under pressure when the engine is not running except the check valves. If that's the case, failure of only one check valve would be enough that the stored oil pressure is lost.
 

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I have a '07 late year QP executive GT with 30k miles, just purchased end of May, and I believe the PO KNEW he had this starting and did not disclose. after purchasing and having the car for a few days, the first time it was home was the first time I believe that I had started the car after it had sat long enough to loose pressure and have a "cold start", and there was the infamous rattle. So begins my journey into this for the first time on this vehicle. couple things and a question or two as this is discussed and Jason or others that do these repairs please chime in - My car may be different and I find the installation of the Accusump very interesting in deed and as someone who diagnoses conditions for a career and wants to get to the root cause not just treat symptoms, if you are replacing stuff and spending $10k on it, it dam well better be fixed, if the problem is back in a month then either you have not "fixed or addressed" the real issue!!!! OR the parts are substandard and have failed? Initially I felt that it possibly could be a failed VVT solenoid so I pulled the valve covers and replaced the VVT, it did help slightly. oh and important info - I have a rattle only on drivers side and only last 1 second. otherwise it runs perfect and never have the rattle unless its sat over night-which makes me think check valve? I have had other vehicles that have similar set ups and many cars do, like my Lincoln Navigator , those also can develop a rattle or worse cant run due to phaser(variator but that's what they call them) isn't getting proper pressure from a clogged VVT- or it can electronically fail, and I have seen both, but I have not had a phaser actually fail but had heard those that do. my issue seems one sided so my question is- new VVT problem not gone but goes away - either I need new check valve to maintain pressure, or I install a Accusump like Silverspur did? I am a wet sump car with ZF trans and its lateer in year so should already have the new redesigned variator- Does not seem to me that you $10.000 repair is the answer. -btw having worked on vehicles motors and many different cars for 30 years, a motor is a motor, this is not that much different than the set up on other cars with VVT systems., but we have insufficient oil flow and pressure. Also seems to be rising to the level of a recall ie Porsche and the IMS( I have been down that road too). Has anyone else had this on one side like me? and have they just done the pressure check valve and/or the VVT solenoid ? if the variator was failed it would be out of time and throw codes, correct? I have no codes and runs perfect only the 1 second rattle on left side. also my cams and internals look like brand new, its had a perfect service record and even thoughit was not driven a lot it was started regularly per #2 owner. comments advice etc welcome.
 

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No. However, since this problem started so early in life, and it's bilateral, I am convinced that something that contributes to both sides must be the culprit.

I will definitely add this to my list though. I will be replacing one thing at a time to ensure I will find the problem and that part (those parts) may be step two.
why would you not put a new VVT in while you have the valve covers off? its the only way to do it. and you can get the fairly cheap from UK (eurospars.co.uk) - got mine will all the gaskets for under $177.00 for VVT, spark plug hole gaskets and valve cover gaskets and got them in 2 days, all Ferarri parts OEM) don't bother buying in the US , cheapest was Sacramento Maserati and they wanted $265 on sale just for the VVT.
Phil
 

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Not sure what part you are referring to - VVT typically refers to the entire system for Variable Valve Timing. My solenoids, variators, bushings and all seals are new. My variator screens are clean. My variator accumulator is on order.

I, too, like the idea of the aftermarket sump, but when the entire system is working properly, then it works very well. So, why would I add an additional part to solve a problem in lieu of finding the defective part and replacing it? Theoretically, the aftermarket sump is simply doing the job that the accumulator is designed to do. I say theoretically because the accumulator's job description varies quite a bit between Ferrari techs.

Most importantly, everything discussed in this thread is referencing a dry sump engine. The wet sump units have a verified issue and solution. Please verify that you do in fact have a dry sump engine as most of the Executive GT-equipped cars are wet sump.
 

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Not sure what part you are referring to - VVT typically refers to the entire system for Variable Valve Timing. My solenoids, variators, bushings and all seals are new. My variator screens are clean. My variator accumulator is on order.

I, too, like the idea of the aftermarket sump, but when the entire system is working properly, then it works very well. So, why would I add an additional part to solve a problem in lieu of finding the defective part and replacing it? Theoretically, the aftermarket sump is simply doing the job that the accumulator is designed to do. I say theoretically because the accumulator's job description varies quite a bit between Ferrari techs.

Most importantly, everything discussed in this thread is referencing a dry sump engine. The wet sump units have a verified issue and solution. Please verify that you do in fact have a dry sump engine as most of the Executive GT-equipped cars are wet sump.
Erik,


Yes i have a wet sump motor, and i see wet sump motors apparently fail and sometimes very quickly. Sorry for the confusion when I stated VVT i was specifically referring to the VVT solenoid valve. after i posted the above i went back and re-read some other threads.
by verified issue and solution are you referring to the removal and machining of the front cam cap? if this is a "FIX" why do we still see failures after that is done? and if it is a fix why wasn't the design and installation changed with the factory sooner?
I agree the accumulator should be maintaining enough pressure to not have rattle at start up. Why one one side? well i must be slowly loosing that pressure on the right side. and as you point out there is variation from dry sump to wet, even the newer Variators changed in design and apparently eliminated the internal o-ring seals but also put in stronger springs. but yet we still see over time eventually loosing pressure and leaking down so we get a "dry" start up or loss of pressure and don't have the oil there pressurizing the variator and putting the cam into proper timing .
so how about a 5 second start up where you would essentially be pumping oil and increasing pressure with out actually starting until the pressure was sufficient and then start when that had been achieved?.
where is the accumulator and could this be modified to maintain the necessary pressure? That would be a whole lot easier and cheaper than pulling the cam cap, sending it into MNA to be machined and install a check valve. if the later variators don't have the internal O-rings anymore then that is not the issue, is it? and if not then does it really need to be replaced? i have now read several threads of people having this so called fix and replacing the variators only to still have the 1-2 second rattle on start up. i would be one pissed off customer if i spent that much on a so-called "fix" and then find out it wasn't.
oil pressure on start up is the issue.
 

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Erik,


Yes i have a wet sump motor, and i see wet sump motors apparently fail and sometimes very quickly. Sorry for the confusion when I stated VVT i was specifically referring to the VVT solenoid valve. after i posted the above i went back and re-read some other threads.
by verified issue and solution are you referring to the removal and machining of the front cam cap? if this is a "FIX" why do we still see failures after that is done? and if it is a fix why wasn't the design and installation changed with the factory sooner?
I agree the accumulator should be maintaining enough pressure to not have rattle at start up. Why one one side? well i must be slowly loosing that pressure on the right side. and as you point out there is variation from dry sump to wet, even the newer Variators changed in design and apparently eliminated the internal o-ring seals but also put in stronger springs. but yet we still see over time eventually loosing pressure and leaking down so we get a "dry" start up or loss of pressure and don't have the oil there pressurizing the variator and putting the cam into proper timing .
so how about a 5 second start up where you would essentially be pumping oil and increasing pressure with out actually starting until the pressure was sufficient and then start when that had been achieved?.
where is the accumulator and could this be modified to maintain the necessary pressure? That would be a whole lot easier and cheaper than pulling the cam cap, sending it into MNA to be machined and install a check valve. if the later variators don't have the internal O-rings anymore then that is not the issue, is it? and if not then does it really need to be replaced? i have now read several threads of people having this so called fix and replacing the variators only to still have the 1-2 second rattle on start up. i would be one pissed off customer if i spent that much on a so-called "fix" and then find out it wasn't.
oil pressure on start up is the issue.
1. Yes, that is the update to which I was referring. The check valve.
2. The wet sump cars do not have an accumulator.
3. I haven't heard of the problem recurring that quickly on the wet sump cars. You are correct it is the oil pressure on startup, but to my understanding the installation of the cam cap valve helps retain the oil in the top end.
4. The entire design of the wet sump units is different than that of the dry sump. You are using a low-pressure system that is pretty much common in many cars.
 

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1. Yes, that is the update to which I was referring. The check valve.
2. The wet sump cars do not have an accumulator.
3. I haven't heard of the problem recurring that quickly on the wet sump cars. You are correct it is the oil pressure on startup, but to my understanding the installation of the cam cap valve helps retain the oil in the top end.
4. The entire design of the wet sump units is different than that of the dry sump. You are using a low-pressure system that is pretty much common in many cars.


Ok thanks for some clarification. I am not an expert and not a professional mechanic but have worked on a lot of cars over the years. On my Lincoln its not a whole lot different, and their phasers(same as a variator) can and do eventually fail. On mine it was not even though the Ford STEALERSHIP wanted me to believe that i needed to spend $3000k on parts and labor for all new timing service - chains, phasers, VVT solinoids, tensioners and guides-i replaced the VVT solenoid and problem was solved- a $68 part and 1 hour of my time. Btw i found out that there was a service bulletin out there on this very thing and it acutally recommended the testing of the VVT solenoid first before assuming all new service was required. Also it has been found that oil flow is a factor and a higher pressure pump installation along with heavier weighted oil has made huge difference in the amount of early wear that is seen. Will i need to do that other stuff at some point since i have 200k miles? heck yes, but since i pulled the valve covers and replaced the VVT solenoid valves it has run like new, no codes or timing issues no rattle on start up.
I changed to 5/40 synthetic oil on that car from 5/20 100k miles ago and is probably a big reason why i have made it past 200k miles where as the average is more like 125-150k on those trucks before major service is required. SO how about the move by Ferarri and Maserati to the 20/60 weight oil on the new cars? could our cars benefit from the same?
Would have been nice if it had been that simple with the QP. i wonder what ford and Jaguar(i have a '04 VDP with 4.2L V8 as well) have done differently in their systems to not have or rarely and only on high mile vehicles, have this loss of pressure or leak down? The question i am asking that has not been answered is, on the particular car with a wet sump system, low pressure etc is, what was keeping the pressure up normally and no rattle for the first 13 years and 30kmiles of its life and now all of a sudden it doesn't? and now we supposedly need to install and check valve to do that? why? it wasn't there before and it was just fine- and still is on one side- does the VVT solenoid valve have anything to do with maintaining that pressure? because it does on the Ford from what i understand, - maybe on start up the pressure from the oil pump was coming up faster and maybe its not now? I can tell you i'm not spending $10k or even$5k on it i will take it over and trade it in before i do that. I bought low enough if i do that now i might not even loose $1k,
oh well live and learn.
 

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Ok thanks for some clarification. I am not an expert and not a professional mechanic but have worked on a lot of cars over the years. On my Lincoln its not a whole lot different, and their phasers(same as a variator) can and do eventually fail. On mine it was not even though the Ford STEALERSHIP wanted me to believe that i needed to spend $3000k on parts and labor for all new timing service - chains, phasers, VVT solinoids, tensioners and guides-i replaced the VVT solenoid and problem was solved- a $68 part and 1 hour of my time. Btw i found out that there was a service bulletin out there on this very thing and it acutally recommended the testing of the VVT solenoid first before assuming all new service was required. Also it has been found that oil flow is a factor and a higher pressure pump installation along with heavier weighted oil has made huge difference in the amount of early wear that is seen. Will i need to do that other stuff at some point since i have 200k miles? heck yes, but since i pulled the valve covers and replaced the VVT solenoid valves it has run like new, no codes or timing issues no rattle on start up.
I changed to 5/40 synthetic oil on that car from 5/20 100k miles ago and is probably a big reason why i have made it past 200k miles where as the average is more like 125-150k on those trucks before major service is required. SO how about the move by Ferarri and Maserati to the 20/60 weight oil on the new cars? could our cars benefit from the same?
Would have been nice if it had been that simple with the QP. i wonder what ford and Jaguar(i have a '04 VDP with 4.2L V8 as well) have done differently in their systems to not have or rarely and only on high mile vehicles, have this loss of pressure or leak down? The question i am asking that has not been answered is, on the particular car with a wet sump system, low pressure etc is, what was keeping the pressure up normally and no rattle for the first 13 years and 30kmiles of its life and now all of a sudden it doesn't? and now we supposedly need to install and check valve to do that? why? it wasn't there before and it was just fine- and still is on one side- does the VVT solenoid valve have anything to do with maintaining that pressure? because it does on the Ford from what i understand, - maybe on start up the pressure from the oil pump was coming up faster and maybe its not now? I can tell you i'm not spending $10k or even$5k on it i will take it over and trade it in before i do that. I bought low enough if i do that now i might not even loose $1k,
oh well live and learn.
These are good questions and thus far, it has been found that is is far easier and more reliable to swap out the parts (and make the improvements) than to find the actual cause of the wear. The wet sump cars that suffer from the problem the most are the earlier variations, and it is believe the bugs weren't quite worked out yet in its design. This is why the later models come with the cam cap update and don't seem to have the issue.

As far as the oil, I cannot speak for or recommend anything for the wet sumps, however the dry sumps run well on a heavier weight oil. I use Mobil 1 15w50. Having the problem for so long, I was able to test the different weight oils on the effect/loudness/length of the startup rattle and this weight helped the most. Coincidentally, the Ferrari dealer recommends 10w60 racing oil for the hot climates.

The wet and dry sump engines are VERY SIMILAR in appearance and function, but according to the Maserati Academy, they are "80%" different in parts. We all know the difference in the VVT system, oil system, trans., etc., but the dry sump oil system in the F430 is far more similar to the dry sump QP. Not saying that one is better than the other, but they did make small design changes to many parts, so I'm more comfortable using recommendations originally intended for Ferrari on the dry sump cars.

Finally, about oil choice, manufacturers recommendations on oil weight/viscosity are based on a universal choice, taking into account all locations around the world, in every possible climate. But in the real world, that's not always the best. I live in Florida, where heat indices are in the triple digits and there's lots a stop & go. The oil I use can hardly match the requirements of the same car in rural British Columbia. With that said, the winter rating on a 15w50 is necessary, in my opinion, when I'm starting in the dead heat. In an area where it's 10 degrees below, probably not.
 

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Thanks for the quick reply!! i am in South Carolina and until i get this ironed out have only drive the car 3 times since buying it, but i was going to make the change to the 10w60 since we are in a very hot time of year. Sounds like your change to the 15/50 helped some. My PO was very good about regular oil changes and used the factory spec oil weight and type. it is clean as a whistle! Cams and cover were like you drove it off the show room floor.
If i can find someone that is used to doing this and can do it for closer to $2500 i would keep the car and do the full upgrade. We lost the Maserati dealer but the Porsche dealer next store hired two of themechanics and my parts guy at Porsche says he has great relationship with the dealership and parts dept. in Jax Florida . I am going to see if the mechanic there has done this and what he might expect for the repair. - What is the charge my MNA for sending them in the cam caps and having the mod done?


Thanks a bunch and hope this all helps others as well.


Phil
 

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Before we close out this thread, I must say that the variator service is a complicated job that shouldn't be "bargain shopped." Being that you're not far from GA, I wouldn't hesitate to give Jason a call an Enzos, when you're ready for the service. I'm not saying that nobody else is capable, however experience counts when disassembling and reassembling the engine to this degree and there are probably 50 different torque specs and various techniques that you need to know to make this a routine procedure.

My recommendations on oil only apply to the dry sump cars. The failure of the variators on the wet sump units are completely different and typically progress quickly. Once the variators are replaced and the caps are updated, you should be good to go. My comments on the "underlying issues" are directed only to the dry sump cars, which have an entirely different timing system.
 

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Hi guys, I'm from Ukraine. I got QTP 2007 with ZF A/T transmision.
Sorry my English is not the best. Nevertheless, I want to tell how I myself decided the issue with check valves.

The problem was the sound during a cold start.
The borders are closed due to Covid 19 and I can’t send the covers for modification to Italy.
I also do not want to drive my Mercedes G-class in the summer.
Therefore, I decided to fix the problem myself.

After spending a lot of time, I managed to find out which valve is used for modification.
I calmly bought it for $ 20.

Next, you need a little modified cover to install new check valves.
There is nothing complicated about it. Any engine repair service will do this.

Valve Part Number
2113523010

I am applying the photo.
 
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