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Discussion Starter #22
As to turning off, I can tell a difference between turning it off and intentionally causing a fault that forces it to disable.
What would 'intentionally' cause a fault that disables the MSP?

So although I don't have any literature to back it up, it does not shut it completely off with the switch at least in my car.
I think that's where I am too. The MSP seems to be present to some degree even while off. Burying the throttle certainly isn't something I do regularly, so as long as this is 'normal' I'm happy letting the car tell me what works and what doesn't.
 

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What would 'intentionally' cause a fault that disables the MSP?



I think that's where I am too. The MSP seems to be present to some degree even while off. Burying the throttle certainly isn't something I do regularly, so as long as this is 'normal' I'm happy letting the car tell me what works and what doesn't.
Disconnecting the steering angle sensor is the easiest way to induce a fault that shuts down the MSP.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
After some more research...

I had a FD Rear Sway Bar installed. Doing so requires dropping the rear sub-frame, and therefore disconnecting the ABS sensors on the rear wheels. If I understand my manual correctly, the ABS sensors also feed the ASR (Anti-Slip) System which is the part of the MSP that specifically prevents wheel spin

Although I don't have any ABS faults, I'll be checking those connections to make sure they're solid.

You all are much smarter on these cars than me...does this sound reasonable/possible? Anything else related to the ASR that might be trying to (at least initially) preventing a wheel spin on initial throttle input?
 

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Not really. Disconnected ABS sensors *will* cause an error, I am completely sure of that.

I completely expect that the MSP will be doing something when 'off' More 'have greater control' than 'You get on with it and I'll pick up the pieces'

Still a little surprised by what you're describing, mind.


C
 

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Just double checked- floored it from a standstill, msp on, DBW on, pwr off. No hesitation, laid some rubber on the asphalt.
So what you are experiencing is not normal. FWIW
 

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If it happens with MSP off then my comment may not be directly applicable. As a point of interest, though, have you experimented with how you modulate the gas pedal?

Can anyone else comment on the use of the gas pedal from a standing start? Am I the only one who finds that "flooring it" is not optimal?

Although I originally come from the Viper world I had the privilege of working closely with the SRT engineers while modifying vehicles I would come across situations and ask for help. The DBW systems of all manufacturers have safety protocols in place to prevent unintended acceleration events where a user stabs at the throttle. The logarithms for engine management look for specific air flows and if you track throttle movement compared to actual TB actuation you will see there is no such thing as a "pedal mode" where you get what you ask for with or without TC enabled.


If you want the best acceleration you should quickly "tip into" the throttle, micro pause then floor smoothly, this shows the PCM you are actually in control of the throttle not mistakenly doing it. This will get you the most aggressive acceleration in most circumstances. In cars that have defeat able TC or stability control even if TC is completely disabled the stability remains at the ready if you do something foolish albeit in a more relaxed mode.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Not really. Disconnected ABS sensors *will* cause an error, I am completely sure of that.

I completely expect that the MSP will be doing something when 'off' More 'have greater control' than 'You get on with it and I'll pick up the pieces'

Still a little surprised by what you're describing, mind.


C
Thanks. Yeah, it certainly SEEMS like the MSP--even OFF--still has a hand in those aggressive starts, but surprising to the degree.

It's certainly something I'm happy to live with...I wouldn't be 'stepping on it' very often. In fact pretty rarely. After all (especially the spyder) is really a GT, not a pure sports car.

Cheers,
M
 

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Just double checked- floored it from a standstill, msp on, DBW on, pwr off. No hesitation, laid some rubber on the asphalt.
So what you are experiencing is not normal. FWIW
I do not have Formula Dynamics DBW. One of the reasons that I do not is that the throttle response without Formula Dynamics DBW is excellent, if I modulate the throttle "properly."

Following the remarks of mjorgensen above, the need to modulate the throttle properly is not unique to this car. My S65 AMG is something of a beast with 744 ft-lbs of torque. My S65 does not take well to mashing the pedal thoughtlessly, but delivers a remarkable response with a little bit of nuance in the process of an aggressive standing start.
 

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I do not have Formula Dynamics DBW. One of the reasons that I do not is that the throttle response without Formula Dynamics DBW is excellent, if I modulate the throttle "properly."

Following the remarks of mjorgensen above, the need to modulate the throttle properly is not unique to this car. My S65 AMG is something of a beast with 744 ft-lbs of torque. My S65 does not take well to mashing the pedal thoughtlessly, but delivers a remarkable response with a little bit of nuance in the process of an aggressive standing start.
I will bypass it (DBW) and try again. But I've tested it before when I first installed it and it did not make such huge difference. The biggest difference was between PWR button ON and OFF ( I believe the Skyhook equipped cars have equivalent "sport " button). But that is still most in the shift time/shift point (throttle blip) more than from a standstill....
 

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The throttle response is just like the MSP taking over, but it happens with the MSP off. Is it possible the MSP still has an affect even if off?

I assume not...

Therefore I'm thinking it may be one of the issues raised by Craig (please continue the long posts, extremely educational!). I bought the car last Dec from Maser of West Palm Beach, they reported 8% wear on the clutch and sent the attached diagnostics. That was 1000 miles ago. Mostly meaningless to me. Would these diagnostics indicate one of those issues?

Catman, sorry again for the mix up! I've certainly learned alot from your posts and greatly appreciate everything you've shared.

Cheers all...thanks for all the thoughts and advice! Great forum.
From these screen shots the clutch wear degree is on point. But this really wouldn't be useful unless it was doing this when you first purchased the vehicle or it exhibited these signs back then.
 

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Absolutely not a feature nor a normal characteristic, there is no lag and my 2005 90th anniversary spyder has fantastic low end torque and instant gear changes both up and down. I have occasionally used my car on the race track and have always been able to launch start without any issue.
There is definitely something very wrong with your spyder hope you get it sorted so you can enjoy yours over the years as much as I have been able to mine.
David White UK
 

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Craig What a fantastic and interesting technical reply

Chris, brother we all think we look better with a few pints in us.:wink2:

Actually, I second what Jason said above, and also Chris you aren't deluding yourself either. The factory recommended specs for PIS set up is I believe 4.8mm-5.1 or 5.2. 4.8mm being the lowest and 5.2 the highest. Now granted I've actually never set it that high because no one likes their clutch slipping and replacing it more often. I have set it up much lower in the high 3s. But a PIS of 1.8mm would be too low to operate IF on a correct scan tool.

I think we have spoken about this before. Not all scan tools report the data correctly. For instance, the Chinese knock offs always report this data incorrectly. It's possible that's what's going on here. I've seen some of them report the data in inches or cms as well. Although if it was 1.8 inches that would be 45mm so that couldn't be correct.

Second to this, if the shaft that the F1 sensor magnet is hung on was also slightly bent forward this could also throw it off. Anyway seems like if the OP and Chris had similar readings (I've personally never seen it) maybe it was something else I'm not thinking of.

Let's drop into the OP's original issue. I imagine if you look at the clutch wear index you are going to see that it's high. Throttle control is connected to torque transmissibility curve. So if the car's sensory data is telling it the clutch is slipping too much from a stand still it attempts to adjust for it. It's very similar to the MSP, it would feel similar.

I've experienced this is in a few situations. One, needs a new clutch. Two friction discs are glazed. Finally, the thrust bearing is sticking, or not fully releasing.

I feel I am always long winded on these matters, so I apologize in advance. I'd rather people have a fuller understanding now than three pages of thread later correcting for it.

Needing a new clutch.......Unfortunately I'd like to tell you everyone does the right thing and wouldn't re-write the clutch data to make it look like it had a new clutch and it didn't. In PPIs, I usually compare the 4200's clutch data with like similar clutch data I have of where the new clutch parameters were set in those cars. When replaced they are usually within a general area of mm from new. If someone wrote 25mm clutch from new, that's a sure sign it wasn't replaced (just as an example).

Glazed over friction discs.......this can be initially caused by having the PIS point set too high, always slipping the clutch (causing excessive heat) and bringing the adhesive of the friction material to the surface. Basically it causes a sheen or glaze on the surface that's supposed to be contacting the flywheel and intermediary disc. This can also hot spot the flywheel as well.

Finally, sticky or failing thrust bearing. The internal slave/thrust bearing is what the hydraulic pressure uses to open and close the manual clutch in this car. When you hit say first to second gear, the EVF solenoid, or clutch solenoid valve, is triggered releasing the hydraulic pressure down the pressure line that runs along the torque tube. This runs into the bell housing and pressurizes the slave bearing. It opens, shifts, then immediately releases the pressure, the springs on either size of the thrust bearing forces it to close. If it sticks for a second, it causes delayed shifts or lagging accelerated shifts. That awesome F1 system begins to shift akin to your Honda automatic. If it's leaking or anything similar it could also do the same.

On this last point above I want to also add, many dealerships do the bare minimum when they are trying to eat the cost of selling an F1 car. For instance, they only replace the clutch itself, they won't replace the F1 position sensor, thrust bearing, and possibly pilot bearing ,which makes sense to them. They can advertise it has a new clutch, prove through scan data it does, and sell the car with half the job truly done. Then the Customer deals with the issues afterwards, the Brand gets a bad name, so on and such forth.

Anyway hope this helps.
What a fantastic and interesting technical reply that even I can understand!
Particularly interesting because my car has done 20k now and will be coming up for a new clutch soon, I will now make sure it has your suggested "replace the F1 position sensor, thrust bearing, and possibly pilot bearing".
Thanks for your time Craig!!!

David White UK :smile2:
 

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Hey all...

I don't know if this is a "feature" or not, but the weather's finally been good enough to really have fun with the 05 Spyder I bought last Dec. However, whenever I try to aggressively launch the car from a standstill, the car initially lurches like the engine's going to respond, but then "cuts out" as if I completely let off the accelerator. After that very brief "hesitation", the engine finally kicks in and I get a good launch. With MSP off that second kick will spin the tires right to 6500rpm.

Is this 'normal'?

I installed a FD DBW a couple months ago and thought that might be causing it somehow, but it does it in all combinations of modes; normal/sport, DBW on/off/bypassed, and MSP on/off. When I have a free weekend I'll retrace the DBW connections to make sure nothing came loose, but the car runs as expected with a DBW once I get that initial start out of the way.

I know the pre-GS 4200's don't have a great amount of low-end torque, but the response is not like an engine that's bogged down. The affect is as if I 1) aggressively push the accelerator, 2) let up completely, and 3) aggressively push the accelerator again. The 06 GS I had provided good throttle without any hesitation. I know GS's are truly different cars, but can it be THAT different?

Last winter I changed all the fluids, installed Denso Iridium plugs, an FD X-pipe and FD sway bars. The air filter was clean so I didn't replace it.

Thoughts?

hey
MKTViper

I just bought a 06 GS and have the same problem.... whenever I try to aggressively launch the car from a standstill, the car initially lurches like the engine's going to respond, but then "cuts out" as if I completely let off the accelerator...

Sorry couldn't make heads or tails of all the reply's... did you ever get it figured out? Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Yes, it was the PIS set too low. It was like "dumping" the clutch in a 3-pedal car. Try setting the PIS a little higher for a smoother takeoff.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
You'll need to take it to a dealer or independent with an SD2/3 or Leonardo to talk to the computer.
 

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@MKTViper hey! Another local DC area owner! Maybe our paths will cross one of these days. I’m in MoCo.
 
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