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Discussion Starter #1
Hey all...

I don't know if this is a "feature" or not, but the weather's finally been good enough to really have fun with the 05 Spyder I bought last Dec. However, whenever I try to aggressively launch the car from a standstill, the car initially lurches like the engine's going to respond, but then "cuts out" as if I completely let off the accelerator. After that very brief "hesitation", the engine finally kicks in and I get a good launch. With MSP off that second kick will spin the tires right to 6500rpm.

Is this 'normal'?

I installed a FD DBW a couple months ago and thought that might be causing it somehow, but it does it in all combinations of modes; normal/sport, DBW on/off/bypassed, and MSP on/off. When I have a free weekend I'll retrace the DBW connections to make sure nothing came loose, but the car runs as expected with a DBW once I get that initial start out of the way.

I know the pre-GS 4200's don't have a great amount of low-end torque, but the response is not like an engine that's bogged down. The affect is as if I 1) aggressively push the accelerator, 2) let up completely, and 3) aggressively push the accelerator again. The 06 GS I had provided good throttle without any hesitation. I know GS's are truly different cars, but can it be THAT different?

Last winter I changed all the fluids, installed Denso Iridium plugs, an FD X-pipe and FD sway bars. The air filter was clean so I didn't replace it.

Thoughts?
 

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I suspect you could benefit from a professional clutch PIS set up.

Oh, and maybe turn the MSP off. It could be cutting power due to loss of traction.

C
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I suspect you could benefit from a professional clutch PIS set up.

Oh, and maybe turn the MSP off. It could be cutting power due to loss of traction.

C
Thanks Craig for the reply. I had Greg @ LocoExotics here in northern VA set my PIS a couple months ago (before installing the DBW). He used a Leonardo and initially read it at 2.4, We were expecting something in the 5's...it certainly drove "sloppy". We drove it around resetting it as we went and ended up at 1.6. It drove much much better. FWIW I don't remember the issue back then, but I was probably not being very aggressive with it either. Is there more that can/should be done with the PIS?

I thought the same regarding the MSP...it's alot like the MSP taking over when it feels you're loosing traction. But no change with MSP off.

I'll contact FD to see if they think a wire could've come loose.

BTW, your website is fantastic. Thanks so much! I've used it for replacing the gear oil and valve cover gaskets.

Cheers,
Mike
 

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Hey all...

I don't know if this is a "feature" or not, but the weather's finally been good enough to really have fun with the 05 Spyder I bought last Dec. However, whenever I try to aggressively launch the car from a standstill, the car initially lurches like the engine's going to respond, but then "cuts out" as if I completely let off the accelerator. After that very brief "hesitation", the engine finally kicks in and I get a good launch. With MSP off that second kick will spin the tires right to 6500rpm.

Is this 'normal'?

I installed a FD DBW a couple months ago and thought that might be causing it somehow, but it does it in all combinations of modes; normal/sport, DBW on/off/bypassed, and MSP on/off. When I have a free weekend I'll retrace the DBW connections to make sure nothing came loose, but the car runs as expected with a DBW once I get that initial start out of the way.

I know the pre-GS 4200's don't have a great amount of low-end torque, but the response is not like an engine that's bogged down. The affect is as if I 1) aggressively push the accelerator, 2) let up completely, and 3) aggressively push the accelerator again. The 06 GS I had provided good throttle without any hesitation. I know GS's are truly different cars, but can it be THAT different?

Last winter I changed all the fluids, installed Denso Iridium plugs, an FD X-pipe and FD sway bars. The air filter was clean so I didn't replace it.

Thoughts?
Now I remember that at the end of my clutch life I had the same symptoms. Also had the PIS reset but it did not help much. Added DBW - that did not help much. It only went away after I installed new clutch.
Mine is a 2005 Spyder FWIW
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hmm. Hope not. I had the clutch read a few hundred miles ago and it showed 10% wear.
 

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Thanks Craig for the reply. I had Greg @ LocoExotics here in northern VA set my PIS a couple months ago (before installing the DBW). He used a Leonardo and initially read it at 2.4, We were expecting something in the 5's...it certainly drove "sloppy". We drove it around resetting it as we went and ended up at 1.6. It drove much much better. FWIW I don't remember the issue back then, but I was probably not being very aggressive with it either. Is there more that can/should be done with the PIS?

I thought the same regarding the MSP...it's alot like the MSP taking over when it feels you're loosing traction. But no change with MSP off.

I'll contact FD to see if they think a wire could've come loose.

BTW, your website is fantastic. Thanks so much! I've used it for replacing the gear oil and valve cover gaskets.

Cheers,
Mike

@Craig and @Catmanv2 aren't the same person:surprise: They are both very nice and helpful though0:)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
@Craig and @Catmanv2 aren't the same person They are both very nice and helpful thoughDang! Sorry about that! Yes, both are very helpful!
My apologies Catmanv2.
 

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BTW PIS at 1.6 is very low. I had mine at completely worn out clutch set to about 4 and it was slipping since the clutch ws pretty much gone. The mechanic said that if he set it lower it was dragging so that was the best he could do. The new one was unusually high about 6.4 . I had to watch it taking off from standstill as it was very sensitive and accelerated very aggressively. Loved it. Now after a while it bedded in takes off normal and I have to go back to have the PIS reset lower. I want that "rocket ship" takeoff back !!! A side benefit were quicker upshifts as well...
 

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My apologies Catmanv2.
No problem! Craig knows far more about these cars than I do. I, on the other hand, am better looking ;)

I agree that the PIS sounds mad low, but looking back on my screen shots I seem to have a PIS of 1.8 so maybe I'm deluding myself.

Best of luck

C
 

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No problem! Craig knows far more about these cars than I do. I, on the other hand, am better looking ;)

I agree that the PIS sounds mad low, but looking back on my screen shots I seem to have a PIS of 1.8 so maybe I'm deluding myself.

Best of luck

C
Chris, brother we all think we look better with a few pints in us.:wink2:

Actually, I second what Jason said above, and also Chris you aren't deluding yourself either. The factory recommended specs for PIS set up is I believe 4.8mm-5.1 or 5.2. 4.8mm being the lowest and 5.2 the highest. Now granted I've actually never set it that high because no one likes their clutch slipping and replacing it more often. I have set it up much lower in the high 3s. But a PIS of 1.8mm would be too low to operate IF on a correct scan tool.

I think we have spoken about this before. Not all scan tools report the data correctly. For instance, the Chinese knock offs always report this data incorrectly. It's possible that's what's going on here. I've seen some of them report the data in inches or cms as well. Although if it was 1.8 inches that would be 45mm so that couldn't be correct.

Second to this, if the shaft that the F1 sensor magnet is hung on was also slightly bent forward this could also throw it off. Anyway seems like if the OP and Chris had similar readings (I've personally never seen it) maybe it was something else I'm not thinking of.

Let's drop into the OP's original issue. I imagine if you look at the clutch wear index you are going to see that it's high. Throttle control is connected to torque transmissibility curve. So if the car's sensory data is telling it the clutch is slipping too much from a stand still it attempts to adjust for it. It's very similar to the MSP, it would feel similar.

I've experienced this is in a few situations. One, needs a new clutch. Two friction discs are glazed. Finally, the thrust bearing is sticking, or not fully releasing.

I feel I am always long winded on these matters, so I apologize in advance. I'd rather people have a fuller understanding now than three pages of thread later correcting for it.

Needing a new clutch.......Unfortunately I'd like to tell you everyone does the right thing and wouldn't re-write the clutch data to make it look like it had a new clutch and it didn't. In PPIs, I usually compare the 4200's clutch data with like similar clutch data I have of where the new clutch parameters were set in those cars. When replaced they are usually within a general area of mm from new. If someone wrote 25mm clutch from new, that's a sure sign it wasn't replaced (just as an example).

Glazed over friction discs.......this can be initially caused by having the PIS point set too high, always slipping the clutch (causing excessive heat) and bringing the adhesive of the friction material to the surface. Basically it causes a sheen or glaze on the surface that's supposed to be contacting the flywheel and intermediary disc. This can also hot spot the flywheel as well.

Finally, sticky or failing thrust bearing. The internal slave/thrust bearing is what the hydraulic pressure uses to open and close the manual clutch in this car. When you hit say first to second gear, the EVF solenoid, or clutch solenoid valve, is triggered releasing the hydraulic pressure down the pressure line that runs along the torque tube. This runs into the bell housing and pressurizes the slave bearing. It opens, shifts, then immediately releases the pressure, the springs on either size of the thrust bearing forces it to close. If it sticks for a second, it causes delayed shifts or lagging accelerated shifts. That awesome F1 system begins to shift akin to your Honda automatic. If it's leaking or anything similar it could also do the same.

On this last point above I want to also add, many dealerships do the bare minimum when they are trying to eat the cost of selling an F1 car. For instance, they only replace the clutch itself, they won't replace the F1 position sensor, thrust bearing, and possibly pilot bearing ,which makes sense to them. They can advertise it has a new clutch, prove through scan data it does, and sell the car with half the job truly done. Then the Customer deals with the issues afterwards, the Brand gets a bad name, so on and such forth.

Anyway hope this helps.
 

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Another way to verify the clutch condition is to inspect it visually through the window in the bell housing. If the sagital grooves in the friction disc are visible it is still in working condition. If you can't see them any more the clutch most likely need replacement. Craig?
 

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Hey all...

I don't know if this is a "feature" or not, but the weather's finally been good enough to really have fun with the 05 Spyder I bought last Dec. However, whenever I try to aggressively launch the car from a standstill, the car initially lurches like the engine's going to respond, but then "cuts out" as if I completely let off the accelerator. After that very brief "hesitation", the engine finally kicks in and I get a good launch. With MSP off that second kick will spin the tires right to 6500rpm.

Is this 'normal'?

I installed a FD DBW a couple months ago and thought that might be causing it somehow, but it does it in all combinations of modes; normal/sport, DBW on/off/bypassed, and MSP on/off. When I have a free weekend I'll retrace the DBW connections to make sure nothing came loose, but the car runs as expected with a DBW once I get that initial start out of the way.

I know the pre-GS 4200's don't have a great amount of low-end torque, but the response is not like an engine that's bogged down. The affect is as if I 1) aggressively push the accelerator, 2) let up completely, and 3) aggressively push the accelerator again. The 06 GS I had provided good throttle without any hesitation. I know GS's are truly different cars, but can it be THAT different?

Last winter I changed all the fluids, installed Denso Iridium plugs, an FD X-pipe and FD sway bars. The air filter was clean so I didn't replace it.

Thoughts?
This thread became a discussion of clutch settings. However I have the experience above. My solution is not to mash the gas pedal. It seems that there is a gas pedal application regime that will deliver thrilling acceleration. But that is not the same as mashing the pedal which yields a disappointing, and possibly dangerous, "stop the car" response from the MSP.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
BTW PIS at 1.6 is very low. I had mine at completely worn out clutch set to about 4 and it was slipping since the clutch ws pretty much gone. The mechanic said that if he set it lower it was dragging so that was the best he could do. The new one was unusually high about 6.4 . I had to watch it taking off from standstill as it was very sensitive and accelerated very aggressively. Loved it. Now after a while it bedded in takes off normal and I have to go back to have the PIS reset lower. I want that "rocket ship" takeoff back !!! A side benefit were quicker upshifts as well...
I actually think the 1.6 setting is some sort of translation with the Leonardo. Shifting wasn't really THAT aggressive, at least nowhere near what I'd expect with such a low setting.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
This thread became a discussion of clutch settings. However I have the experience above. My solution is not to mash the gas pedal. It seems that there is a gas pedal application regime that will deliver thrilling acceleration. But that is not the same as mashing the pedal which yields a disappointing, and possibly dangerous, "stop the car" response from the MSP.
The throttle response is just like the MSP taking over, but it happens with the MSP off. Is it possible the MSP still has an affect even if off?

I assume not...

Therefore I'm thinking it may be one of the issues raised by Craig (please continue the long posts, extremely educational!). I bought the car last Dec from Maser of West Palm Beach, they reported 8% wear on the clutch and sent the attached diagnostics. That was 1000 miles ago. Mostly meaningless to me. Would these diagnostics indicate one of those issues?

Catman, sorry again for the mix up! I've certainly learned alot from your posts and greatly appreciate everything you've shared.

Cheers all...thanks for all the thoughts and advice! Great forum.
 

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If it happens with MSP off then my comment may not be directly applicable. As a point of interest, though, have you experimented with how you modulate the gas pedal?

Can anyone else comment on the use of the gas pedal from a standing start? Am I the only one who finds that "flooring it" is not optimal?
 

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I have only tried flooring it from a stop once and two things quickly came up. The MSP shutdown and the abuse to the clutch. With that, I've found that even with a rolling start, flooring it either kicks in the MSP or with it off, smokes the tires. With warm tires, it can be floored in a straight line from a roll and MSP doesn't go too crazy, but I also run 305s in the back. Smooth, quick, and deliberate application of the throttle works best by a huge margin. In a corner (turning left at an intersection) too much throttle is a really bad idea, with or without MSP. As to turning off, I can tell a difference between turning it off and intentionally causing a fault that forces it to disable. So although I don't have any literature to back it up, it does not shut it completely off with the switch at least in my car.
 

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I actually think the 1.6 setting is some sort of translation with the Leonardo. Shifting wasn't really THAT aggressive, at least nowhere near what I'd expect with such a low setting.
Actually it would just stall if the clutch was too low. As soon as you put it in gear the dragging clutch would stall the engine. It did in mine after we changed the clutch and prior to resetting the PIS
 
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