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Discussion Starter #1
Now as I posted in a previous post I think my f1 pump just took a dump on me. So before take it to the stealership I figure I'd run a few simple test on my own. I'm no Buzz but I can work with simple relays, fuses, and basic mechanics.

So, I check the relay and it seems as though its still functioning. I popped the cap off and can hear/see it engage but still no F1 action.

I check the fuse box. No one answered on if the f1 pump had a fuse as well so I figure..... just check em all. Everything was "A okay"

Finally I figure I'd hop on eurospares get some idea as to what the hell the f1 pump even looks like and go on a hunt for it since I couldn't find a post with any photos or location.

Sooooo, I slide up under Ebony and take a look see. (I still dont get why the pump and actuator are at the rear of the car and the clutch is still up front??)
Okay anyways. Looking under the car I can CLEARLY see not only the pump but also the two nuts that hold it to the bracket, the hose going to the tank, and the hose going to the power unit.

I must be missing something for Maser to be charging 10hrs labor for this or $2500 even if that does include the pump (roughly $1000). In the length of time it takes for me to make this post I think I could of had those two nuts off and dropped the pump.

So before I tear some $#it up can someone tell me what I'm missing I've attached a few photos (please excuse the high exposure) of what I can see and even the eurospares diagram i'm working from
 

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Discussion Starter #2
For anyone having issues understanding the pics

Pump is number 16 in diagram
 

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Isn't the replacement of the F1 pump a tranny out operation?
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #4
28 mins...

I don't think so. I just dropped mine in 28 mins. (but who's counting). And although I might be handy with a screwdriver.... i can't drop a tranny that quick.

The part is Labeled:
Denso / "Magneti Marelli"

5-349-B
MS064100-9060 12V
BM.0004708.E

Attached are a couple photos.

I tried hooking it up to a 12v source just to verify its dead and as soon as I made connection to the terminals it arched badly so I assume the motor is burned out/shorted within.... so guess what.

Yep you guessed I'm headed into my lab-or-a-tory to tear it apart. I know its dead now so I might as well break it down and see what burned out.


Stay Tuned......

But for the record IF I am on the right track Maserati has been getting over like a fat rabbit. I mean I stopped twice looking for the right size box end and still completed this in under 30 mins. therefore meaning the whole job would be complete in under an hour.

The $1500+ in labor that Maser is charging to remove/replace the pump is insane.

p.s- I know I asked someone to inspect my photos before I tore some $#it up but I just couldn't resist. Hope this is the right part,lol.....no seriously :(
 

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Well, here are a few diagrams of the transmission and controls.

This one is for the F1 hydraulic clutch controls

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=3&Mo=386&A=1&B=20666&S=

This one is for the power unit and tank

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=3&Mo=386&A=1&B=20667&S=

I am having trouble identifying exactly which part in these diagrams is the infamous F1 pump, and also matching your picture to one of the parts,
though it looks like item 16 on the second diagram, listed as hydraulic
pump. But is this the F1 pump?

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #6
yes. I can't think of any other hydraulic pump on the car. And due to the fact that is says Magnetti Marelli on it I thought that was one of the best clues.

It took me a while to identify it myself as well because I kept searching the eurospares site for "F1 pump". Then tonight after looking closely I noticed the "Hydraulic pump".

I'm about 99.99% sure I'm correct (not 100% sure about much of anything these days)

I just tore it down but I'll post in the morning about my findings. I'm still 100% Maser is Raping us on this repair!
 

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When the dealer changed the pump in my 2004 Coupe (under warranty), they told me they had to take out the gear box, because the pump would sit on top of it.
Bert
 

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The Q here is whether it is part #6 (the pump itself) or part #1 (the unit that powers the pump) what typically burns-out.

Hope you got it right...
 

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There's no question that the part is a "hydraulic pump" as stated in the Eurospares description. A pump makes noise when it runs and is controlled by a pump relay. I'm 99% sure jags is 99% right :D

So the question is.... why does the pump fail? We have heard that the relay sticks, which burns out the pump motor. Jags' relay still clicks. Could it be some pressure sensor that fails and forces the pump to run continuously?

I really doubt the dealer would tell us they have to remove the gearbox if all they have to do is replace the pump from the bottom of the car. Although it wouldn't surprise me if MNA's procedure is to remove the gearbox, inspect it, replace the pump, replace sensors (preventitive), etc.

This is a VERY interesting experiment and I hope it sheds some light on a somewhat common problem.
 

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The Q here is whether it is part #6 (the pump itself) or part #1 (the unit that powers the pump) what typically burns-out.

Hope you got it right...
Ed, I believe the thing they call the "power unit" is actually the the unit that directs the hydraulic fluid (via valves) to the appropriate actuator. If a valve failed, you would lose a gear but the pump would still run. It looks like the only things that have wires on them are the pump, the valves and some sensors.
 

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Ed, I believe the thing they call the "power unit" is actually the the unit that directs the hydraulic fluid (via valves) to the appropriate actuator. If a valve failed, you would lose a gear but the pump would still run. It looks like the only things that have wires on them are the pump, the valves and some sensors.
Yep Buzz, you may be quite right on this... just thought about that of the top of my head. I do take your point about the pump itself (never had doubts THAT ONE is the pump...) as if the relay does click, then some sensor in the pump might be what's causing the failure, not the hydraulic mechanical components. Of course that is triggered by the relay failing in the first place, which fries the pump actuator. Wonder if some sort-of circuit protection unit can be put in between the relay and the pump... as the pump and the relay are not going to be re-designed, if you see what I mean.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
So the question is.... why does the pump fail? We have heard that the relay sticks, which burns out the pump motor. Jags' relay still clicks. Could it be some pressure sensor that fails and forces the pump to run continuously?

This is a VERY interesting experiment and I hope it sheds some light on a somewhat common problem.
Goodmorning world,

this post will be a little short because im about to get back to work, but here's a quick update.

Buzz, im thinking that its not the sensor only because (in my mind) im thinking the way the system works is that that sensor detect pressure and then gives the signal to the relay to trigger the pump.

IF that is true then the sensor has to be okay because the relay still cycles normally.

Im not sure about other failures but im thinking the motor in mine might have just came to the end up its life span. because I swear when I cut the car off I didnt hear a buzzin from the pump. but anyways...

okay now the results of my inspection:
I aready stated that once I hooked the pump up to a 12v source it arched bad which lead me to believe there was a short.

okay, here is where my knowledge is lacking (so excuse my terminology, don't have time to google)...
I open up the pump and can see what is wrong right away.

The casing that comes off the pump has the two magnetic fields and the bushing in the end.

The other half has the armature(spinning thingy) brushes,etc and of course at the very bottom the hydraulic connections.

Both magnetic fields are clearly ate up along with the armature.

(ill attach photos in next post of the setup)

from the connection even after redressing the arm and fields I still get 0 resistance. can someone tell me what resistance should read across a dc motor (roughly)?


....photos coming soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
pics are up.
 

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This is really cool stuff....

I will pitch in where I can.... I am very interested in this... Great job guys!
 

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Resistance...

http://www.mailbag.com/users/ragreiner/motors.html

"Some small DC motor characteristics are in the following ranges. Motors with voltage ratings of 12 to 18 volts have typical torque ratings of 1 to 5 oz.in. per ampere. These motors have typical resistances of 4 to 10 ohms. Thus one might expect stalled currents of up to 3 to 5 amperes. The lowest values give a power dissipation of 36 watts and the highest 90 watts. These small motors which have a size of about 1" dia. and 2" length or less cannot sustain such power dissipation for more than a few seconds. Thus it is very important to design the system so that it does not stall and/or fuse it to protect the motor and power driver devices. For the brief time that it survives, the DC motor will put out its best effort to break stiction in the mechanical system. But because of saturation of the iron in the motor it will not put out the torque estimated by linear extrapolation."
 

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Discussion Starter #16
http://www.mailbag.com/users/ragreiner/motors.html

"Some small DC motor characteristics are in the following ranges. Motors with voltage ratings of 12 to 18 volts have typical torque ratings of 1 to 5 oz.in. per ampere. These motors have typical resistances of 4 to 10 ohms. Thus one might expect stalled currents of up to 3 to 5 amperes. The lowest values give a power dissipation of 36 watts and the highest 90 watts. These small motors which have a size of about 1" dia. and 2" length or less cannot sustain such power dissipation for more than a few seconds. Thus it is very important to design the system so that it does not stall and/or fuse it to protect the motor and power driver devices. For the brief time that it survives, the DC motor will put out its best effort to break stiction in the mechanical system. But because of saturation of the iron in the motor it will not put out the torque estimated by linear extrapolation."
scratches head,lol.

Okay I think I got it. Now what are the odds of having such a motor rebuilt. And is it just my armature that is fried and can that be rebuilt/replaced without doing the entire pump.

The brushes seem to have much life left and the only other part that concerns me with the Bushing being out of round or worn which would have allowed the arm to make contact with the magnentic fields.

If not the bushing what did it?
 

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Bushing.....

Normally the Bushing is what goes out and thent he damage results... I know a few guys who could rebuild the pump... Hensley Battery and Electric used to do my starters, generators and alternators... If it's just the bushings and brushes, you could do it yourself... Old Chris Crafts use a generator, no longer made, so we have to have them all rebuilt...
 

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Discussion Starter #18
yah i can do bushings and brushes but as of now I think the armatre is shot because I'm ready 0 resistance at the main terminal unless I'm checking this incorrectly.
 

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I wonder if by having one looked at by a specialist that rebuilds electric motors we could figure out the inherant problem that causes the failure? Would a bearing supported armature help as opposed to a standard friction bushing? possibly a better balanced armature?
 

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interesting read |(had my pump done)

re: armature (sp) they are quite easily rewound to same spec (& better balanced) sounds similar in size to model car racing motors, there is a company called Lesro models in christchurch, dorset that build motors & also rewind and balance to a very high spec for little money, maybe worth giving them a shout (they build trinity motors)

magnets should be ok.
 
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