Maserati Forum banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
59 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Friends, Recently and after the engine is hot in my '02 Spyder, if I turn off for a while and restart I am getting a engine rattling noise that goes away after a minute or so. The car runs perfectly afterward and no warning lights are set off. It is not something I am used to hearing and it is forward of the dash. I do not hear it on a cold start. Any ideas? Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
73 Posts
Hi Dave, I had a sound similar to that, just before one of my primary fell apart. I thought it was the clutch ratteling at first while sitting in the car but when i would stand beside or in front it sounded like the motor but it wouldn't happen all the time, then i started getting the CEL coming on saying CAT not reaching temp, not long after that the CAT blew up and blocked the secondary, before that the motor went really well heaps of power.
Chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
59 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Hi Dave, I had a sound similar to that, just before one of my primary fell apart. I thought it was the clutch ratteling at first while sitting in the car but when i would stand beside or in front it sounded like the motor but it wouldn't happen all the time, then i started getting the CEL coming on saying CAT not reaching temp, not long after that the CAT blew up and blocked the secondary, before that the motor went really well heaps of power.
Chris
Chris, I will keep my ears open. I have some miles on this rig (68,000) so that could be it. I was just about to update with another little observation made this morning. My oil stick showed the oil down below the minimum level. A quart brought it well into the safe zone. In a dry-sump system, that may be enough, perhaps, to get some sounds until the engine gets the oil circulated around after a few moments. When I started the car to check the oil, even when down in level, there was no noise. Of course, there was no hot cat either! So, your explanation makes sense. I will keep listening. If it happens again after the cat heats up, into the shop she goes!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,241 Posts
Have someone start it with you at the font of the car with the hood up to verify this is not coming from the engine. Be sure this is not a variator noise. I'm not saying your variators are bad. This might be your accumulator, which I believe can cause the rattling only during warm/hot conditions. I'm going through this right now and all my variators/seals are brand new.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
59 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Have someone start it with you at the font of the car with the hood up to verify this is not coming from the engine. Be sure this is not a variator noise. I'm not saying your variators are bad. This might be your accumulator, which I believe can cause the rattling only during warm/hot conditions. I'm going through this right now and all my variators/seals are brand new.
My variators are new, too, and were done as a part of a front of engine oil leak fix. I am hoping it is something like an accumulator or just that topping off the oil will see the end of the issue.. I will continue when something else is observed or happens,
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,241 Posts
I'm getting the SAME SOUND and it is coming from the new variators. It is only when the car is warm/hot. I just got my accumulator in and will be installing it shortly. I am nearly convinced that the accumulator is the issue. I wrote a long thread on this issue under the QP section with info on the accumulator wear from the manufacturer of the accumulator itself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
Thanks Erik for posting Everything You Need To Know. It was in the QP section so I missed it until now. Anyone with a drysump engine needs to read this, at least for future reference. My takeaway is that you are recommending replacement of the accumulator @ 50k to prevent future problems. Also if I understand correctly, you were going to try to substitute an F430 accumulator for the Mas unit? Did you do it , if so has it worked? At a cost of $800 plus a few hours labor to prevent $5k-10k in repairs it seems like a no-brainer. This winter I was planning to pull the intake manifold to repaint, clean injectors, possibly replace oil press. sender, I will be replacing the accumulator now while all is off. Thanks for spending time and $ to explore the root cause of this issue, and sharing the results with us. BTW does anyone know where to get the gold wrinkle paint for the intake? Any suggestions on other maint. to do while it is off? Thanks.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,241 Posts
Thanks Erik for posting Everything You Need To Know. It was in the QP section so I missed it until now. Anyone with a drysump engine needs to read this, at least for future reference. My takeaway is that you are recommending replacement of the accumulator @ 50k to prevent future problems. Also if I understand correctly, you were going to try to substitute an F430 accumulator for the Mas unit? Did you do it , if so has it worked? At a cost of $800 plus a few hours labor to prevent $5k-10k in repairs it seems like a no-brainer. This winter I was planning to pull the intake manifold to repaint, clean injectors, possibly replace oil press. sender, I will be replacing the accumulator now while all is off. Thanks for spending time and $ to explore the root cause of this issue, and sharing the results with us. BTW does anyone know where to get the gold wrinkle paint for the intake? Any suggestions on other maint. to do while it is off? Thanks.
I did not replace with the F430 unit. I have the new factory accumulator on my work bench waiting for the install. I really should do it this weekend but I dread tearing it down again!

Search around for a deal on the new accumulator (don't install a used one!). I got mine for $270.00 new in the box.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Thanks Erik for posting Everything You Need To Know. It was in the QP section so I missed it until now. Anyone with a drysump engine needs to read this, at least for future reference. My takeaway is that you are recommending replacement of the accumulator @ 50k to prevent future problems. Also if I understand correctly, you were going to try to substitute an F430 accumulator for the Mas unit? Did you do it , if so has it worked? At a cost of $800 plus a few hours labor to prevent $5k-10k in repairs it seems like a no-brainer. This winter I was planning to pull the intake manifold to repaint, clean injectors, possibly replace oil press. sender, I will be replacing the accumulator now while all is off. Thanks for spending time and $ to explore the root cause of this issue, and sharing the results with us. BTW does anyone know where to get the gold wrinkle paint for the intake? Any suggestions on other maint. to do while it is off? Thanks.
I suggest painting the inlet cover red to match the head valve covers. Did this to mine and WHAT a nice difference. When you lift the hood, the matching three cover colors provides a nicely balanced symetry to the engines appearance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
I did not replace with the F430 unit. I have the new factory accumulator on my work bench waiting for the install. I really should do it this weekend but I dread tearing it down again!

Search around for a deal on the new accumulator (don't install a used one!). I got mine for $270.00 new in the box.
Hi Erik,

I'm new to the forum and found your posts on the accumulator as my 2007 QP has developed the dreaded rattle on start up here in Oz and it's getting worse in our heat.

Your theory made sense to me so I just ordered a new one from the UK in the hope it may fix or at least improve things but paid UK558 plus freight because it was the cheapest I could find! It may not be too late to cancel if you can give me details of a better source?

Any update on whether you eventually got yours fitted and if it provided the results you'd hoped for?

Naz
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,241 Posts
Hi Erik,

I'm new to the forum and found your posts on the accumulator as my 2007 QP has developed the dreaded rattle on start up here in Oz and it's getting worse in our heat.

Your theory made sense to me so I just ordered a new one from the UK in the hope it may fix or at least improve things but paid UK558 plus freight because it was the cheapest I could find! It may not be too late to cancel if you can give me details of a better source?

Any update on whether you eventually got yours fitted and if it provided the results you'd hoped for?

Naz
This is good to know that you're starting with the accumulator. I replaced everything but and the rattle returned. I have not replaced it yet but will shortly as the weather is cooler now so I don't mind the garage as much.

I would really like to know if replacing the accumulator will resolve the problem. If it doesn't, then it's likely the bushings are worn down to the point of no return, but I don't believe that's always the case.

Please keep us posted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
I'm far from expert on these engines, but have built race motors with Accu-sump type systems. After reading your great post on Mas. accumulators I began observing what my car does on start-up. Turning the key to the Ign. on position (position 2 Dash lit up), but not start, the oil press light will flash then go out, and oil press. will rise to about 15-20 psi on the gage w/o the engine running. I assume this is the accumulator back feeding the oil galleries. The pressure will go down if I leave it too long before starting. #1 Is this a valid test of accum. function? #2 Is a slight delay between Ign. on, and start-up to let oil flow to prevent dry start a good practice? #3 Like most of these engines, my hot idle oil press. is 35-40 psi, but goes to 70+ with slight revs, when I shut off hot will revving slightly to 70 psi then shut off be beneficial?
#4 If this is true, never leave the Ign. on for a long time as you will dry start eng. Thoughts?
 
Joined
·
3,967 Posts
If you turn the key to position 2 then what have you changed mechanically or electrically to make the oil pressure change? Nothing has changed, but powering up the engine management and the dash lights..The accumulator is not going to hold oil pressure in the variator units indefinitely...The pressured oil will get past the seals.. Jason
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,241 Posts
I agree with Jason 100%. This is why when the accumulator is bad (I'm theorizing based on the symptoms I've seen), you'll get a warm start rattle. The accumulator leaks at the highest rate when the oil viscosity drops with the warm temps. I think the best analogy would be taking a tube and making a ring out of it, where it connects on both sides. You have a pump maintaining a pressure in the tube at a specific psi. When the pump stops, the pressure drops quickly; and while the pump is running, the pressure will vary based on atmospheric conditions, pump performance, etc. Now, if you were to connect a balloon to the tube on the opposite side as the pump, and it fills with air and releases it to stabilize the pressure in the tube to which it's connected, now the pressure in the tube can be easily regulated. That balloon is the accumulator in our engines. I believe a healthy accumulator will provide the pressure we need to park the car in the heat for 2 hours, or until the oil temperature cools and the viscosity returns to a normal level.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
Thanks guys for helping me understand what goes on in the accumulator/variator system. When the ign. is switched on does that open the solenoid valves to the variators? If not where is the pressurized oil coming from that is showing on the gage? The question then is if you let the accumulator exhaust it's small supply of oil, will that cause rattle? How could you tell between a bad accumulator and a leaky solenoid valve? Just trying to get a handle on this, thanks for taking the time to educate an old man. Ed
 
Joined
·
3,967 Posts
Erik and I don't really agree on the accumulator thing...I have a different opinion...The accuumlator is there to store high pressure off the auxiliary oil pump to enable the variator to react quickly and is not a start up device..I'm not saying that a messed up one couldn't cause a problem...These type of VVT units (variator) are an older style and take a lot of pressure to force movement..That is why they were replaced in wet sump engines...As far as your oil light...You can't store oil pressure in a car engine...Period...The entire idea behind a plain bearing is that the oil escapes and the parts ride on a film of oil..You can put check valves etc. in the engine to keep the oil from draining back etc...Engine bearings, cam caps, and variators all leak in some way...If you put 50 PSI of oil on them and shut the oil off and then returned 30 seconds later the gauge would read 0.. That is my thinking on it...Jason
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
I'm getting the SAME SOUND and it is coming from the new variators. It is only when the car is warm/hot. I just got my accumulator in and will be installing it shortly. I am nearly convinced that the accumulator is the issue. I wrote a long thread on this issue under the QP section with info on the accumulator wear from the manufacturer of the accumulator itself.
This is good to know that you're starting with the accumulator. I replaced everything but and the rattle returned. I have not replaced it yet but will shortly as the weather is cooler now so I don't mind the garage as much.

I would really like to know if replacing the accumulator will resolve the problem. If it doesn't, then it's likely the bushings are worn down to the point of no return, but I don't believe that's always the case.

Please keep us posted.
I cancelled that order in case you had a better source. I was paying approx US$800 for a new one, too much? If not I need to reorder ASAP and will definitely keep you posted.

Thanks,
Naz

Thanks Naz
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Erik and I don't really agree on the accumulator thing...I have a different opinion...The accuumlator is there to store high pressure off the auxiliary oil pump to enable the variator to react quickly and is not a start up device..I'm not saying that a messed up one couldn't cause a problem...These type of VVT units (variator) are an older style and take a lot of pressure to force movement..That is why they were replaced in wet sump engines...As far as your oil light...You can't store oil pressure in a car engine...Period...The entire idea behind a plain bearing is that the oil escapes and the parts ride on a film of oil..You can put check valves etc. in the engine to keep the oil from draining back etc...Engine bearings, cam caps, and variators all leak in some way...If you put 50 PSI of oil on them and shut the oil off and then returned 30 seconds later the gauge would read 0.. That is my thinking on it...Jason
Hi Jason,

Your thinking also seems logical and confuses me even more. I'm still struggling to understand why these engines are so bad in this regard, (mine having only 40,000 miles on it) and why even the manufacturer can't guarantee a fix and is not forthcoming with an explanation of the root cause.

I've heard of many owners spending thousands of dollars trying to fix this loud and embarrassing noise only to have the issue return quite soon after ... makes no sense to me. As a manufacturer myself I find this unacceptable both from the POV of the customer and damage to a respected, luxury brand. It's only my love for the marque and the car itself that keeps me hanging in there looking for a more permanent or at least, long lasting solution.

We are being forced more or less to fend for ourselves as it seems to me to be an engineering problem that requires an engineering solution. With this in mind here's a wild thought, (and I know this is not addressing the root cause but), could the installation of an aux oil pump that would turn on upon turning the key produce enough pressure quickly enough to mask the noise? Typically it takes a number of cranks to get these engines fired in my experience so there may be time to build some pressure and get some flow ... and it shouldn't be stupidly expensive. Thoughts anyone?

You can gauge my level of frustration, as ordinarily I am the last to suggest a modification as a possible solution to a problem such as this. I am all ears to anyone who can offer any logical solution as an alternative to that currently on offer to us.
 
Joined
·
3,967 Posts
We have both wet and dry sump cars in the shop all the time and the only ones I hear making bad noises on startup are the wet sump ones and not everyone does it even with the old style variators...I guess some kind of prelube device may help your problem...Jason
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Can heavy oil like 10W 60 or an additive at least ease the noise in a hot climate? It sounds so bad I feel I'm doing damage. I'd like to buy some more time for more research.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top