[BostonJim]

I'm new to this forum, having just purchased an '09 GTS with the F1 Transmission. The car has 26000 miles on it and the clutch life was shown as 50% left. I'm hoping that would mean I'm good until ~ 50K miles on a clutch replacement for this car, but from what I've read that sound optimistic. What is the best mode/method for minimizing clutch wear on these cars? What is the cost of a clutch replacement? Is this something an independent could handle or is the dealer the better/safer choice? BTW, I'm located in the Boston MA/Southern NH region.

Thanks in advance guys for your advice.

Jim

 

[18000rpm]

It's quite likely your clutch has been replaced once before. They typically last 15-30K miles, and I think it starts to slip before it reaches 0%. So my guess is you'll be able to drive another 10-15K miles before it needs replacing. Less if you often drive in automatic mode.

Cost to replace is somewhere between $4-6K I believe. I would call the dealer and ask how much it'd cost to replace the clutch, then also check with an independent shop that handles Italian cars/exotics. I believe there is some calibration involved that requires special computers that your typical car workshop may not have.

 

[nchhotu]

I have the F1 and have had two F1 360's. Get yourself the Formula Dynamics DBW and use sport mode as much as possible. Do not drive in automatic mode. This is one of the best F1 systems taken from the Ferrari 599GTB superfast transmission. There are F1 on this forum with 50k on original clutch.

 

[Craig]

I'm new to this forum, having just purchased an '09 GTS with the F1 Transmission. The car has 26000 miles on it and the clutch life was shown as 50% left. I'm hoping that would mean I'm good until ~ 50K miles on a clutch replacement for this car, but from what I've read that sound optimistic. What is the best mode/method for minimizing clutch wear on these cars? What is the cost of a clutch replacement? Is this something an independent could handle or is the dealer the better/safer choice? BTW, I'm located in the Boston MA/Southern NH region.

Thanks in advance guys for your advice.

Jim

Unfortunately, 50% left doesn't mean you'll obtain 50,000 miles on the clutch before it's gone. Additionally, did you invert the numbers or did the person who scanned the car do so? When you plug the scan tool up to the car, it tells you how worn the clutch is, not necessarily how much it has left. I hope you don't mind me asking who read the clutch wear percentage for you?

I performed a PPI (Pre-Purchase Inspection) on a GranSport in Lawrence a few months ago. Originally, I thought the gentleman was telling the client from California a better story on clutch wear to sell the car. When the owner told me who told him this information I originally did not believe it because I knew the person. I called this specific person, and he verified the wear reading, which was wrong. The clutch wear was more worn which was verified when I read it, and that was consistent with a PPI performed a year earlier by an out of state Maserati dealership.

If you really want to minimize the clutch wear on the car, you should not drive the car in auto mode, and click to neutral when coming to a stop. Allow the brakes to stop the car, don't down shift it. It is easier to change brake pads than it is to change clutches. Finally, I would adjust the Kiss point of the clutch, or Point of Initial Slippage (PIS for short) really low. Personally, and I just set up a Client's GranSport Spyder up yesterday, I like them set for these cars so that as soon as the car registers your foot on the accelerator your car slowly begins to roll forward.
@Xxtant25 owns an 09' from Washington state as well. I just helped him sort his car out. Maybe he can chime in here.

 

[OldMaster]

Living in the Boston area you are blessed! When it comes to F1 gearbox and clutch issues you're neighbor Craig Waterman is likely the best in the country. When my GS needs a clutch (not too soon I hope) I intend to ship the car from Albuquerque to New England and have Craig do the work, and then fly in and drive it home.

 

[Craig]

Living in the Boston area you are blessed! When it comes to F1 gearbox and clutch issues you're neighbor Craig Waterman is likely the best in the country. When my GS needs a clutch (not too soon I hope) I intend to ship the car from Albuquerque to New England and have Craig do the work, and then fly in and drive it home.

I'm humbled and really appreciate the comments. It's great to hear from you again! I see they cancelled "The Dig". My wife and I used to watch the show. It added a better dimension to of already of seen your studios where it was recorded. Alternatively, if you don't want to ship your baby up here, I'd gladly fly in and do it there. Maybe we could just have your mechanics working on the Jeep rock crawlers move one over so I could borrow a lift. I'm hoping you and the Mrs. are doing well.

 

[OldMaster]

Doing well indeed. It would be cheaper for sure to bring you here, but I miss lobster and I love a good road trip.

 

[Xxtant25]

Yes my 09 GTS has been more of a project than I first thought. That's for sure.


Craig has been a huge help in getting me going in the right direction on getting it working correctly. He is certainly correct in his above statements.


I ended up buying my own scan tool just so I can keep track of the parameters and setting of the car, particularly on the F1 system. What I have leaned is it takes very religious maintenance and pretty consistent monitoring to keep it operating smoothly. The clutch is the primary concern for most people, because it is the most "well know" problem, and what the dealer always suggest.


There are several other things to watch, Leakage rates, clutch wear index(different than % of clutch used), and the for mentioned PIS. One of the above post mentions that it probably had a clutch replaced already. And I would say that is pretty likely. 50k on an F1 clutch is a tall order....not impossible, just very unlikely.
Mine made it to 32k on the Original clutch. It now has 39k on it and the Clutch wear reading is 39-42% worn. I believe the last owner was NOT good at driving for "max clutch life", otherwise I would expect it to be better.


But as Craig states, getting the PIS set as low as possible helps, avoid down sifting coming up to stops (even though it sounds really good!), stay out of "auto" and use sport mode as much as possible. I am sure you have "Skyhook" on yours as well, so you suspension gets much stiffer in sport mode, which may not bother you, while I don't like the ride that firm all the time.


In short keeping on top and staying ahead of potential problems by good maintenance, regular monitoring of the various F1 system parameters, and not driving it like you stole it, is the best way to get the best life from you clutch.


I have had mine all apart down to the clutch to replace a trouble some CPS "clutch position sensor". The dealer wanted to do a whole clutch "since we will have it all apart", for the screaming deal of $7300.00. So I declined, and an independent buddy and I did the whole thing in about 8hrs and a cost of $350. So basically, dealers will ALWAYS try and talk you into doing a WHOLE clutch job. Lucky you are up in Craig's and I would lean on him for advice in all thing F1 related.


Thanks
Travis

 

[Craig]

@OldMaster well if it's lobster you are concerned about. I could bring some with me. I actually picked up a couple of lobster traps with the license this year to enjoy off my 34' SeaRay. I can pack them and bring with. The road trip however I cannot reproduce.....
@Xxtant25 I appreciate it Travis. Seems like you've come along quite well in the knowledge of your car. I guess I left out leakage rates, clutch wear index, engagement/selection values only because that would be a much longer conversation with the new owner, with a scan tool, but, you are absolutely correct. I appreciate you posting.

One of the things I think we should mention because sometimes though it's second nature to me, it's not to everyone else. In your situation the person you purchased the car from, had the clutch changed and they installed the F1 position sensor magnet in backwards. It's something very, very minute to even trained mechanic but can cause a lot of issues in these F1 cars. That's Maserati/Ferrari and E Gears like Lamboghini as well.

 

[Richg24]

Jim,

I have to add to this. We are REALLY lucky to have Craig Waterman local to us. I have a 2006 GranSport and spent 4 hours with Craig yesterday. He did an oil change, diagnostic on the whole car--18% left on my clutch--so I'll have him do the clutch this winter. Also he reset the PIS clutch points; my GS is a whole new car! Craig is ULTRA precise. I'm a picky person, in a precision business and was impressed that good isn't good enough for him, it has to be perfect.

Craig's only about 30 minutes or less from where you live.

Just to add to the above postings, follow everyone's suggestions about not downshifting, neutral etc....it matters!

 

[Xxtant25]

You are correct, something as small as a magnet facing the wrong way can, and will, play havoc with a F1 system. I speak from personal experience with that one! Thanks for the help on that again.


And again, you are correct. After getting into the whole F1 system way more than I ever wanted too, the amount of things you need to monitor regularly, would require a very long post indeed.

 

[Catmanv2]

@OldMaster well if it's lobster you are concerned about. I could bring some with me. I actually picked up a couple of lobster traps with the license this year to enjoy off my 34' SeaRay.

Ohhh boy. I'm flying out on the 18th September...... >

C

 

[Craig]

No worries Chris we'll get you situated. I will mark the 18th of Sept down for when you fly in.

 

[JimfromBoston]

Thanks but what is the Formula Dynamics DBW?

 

[Craig]

Thanks but what is the Formula Dynamics DBW?

Jim I answered your PM including contact details. The Formula Dynamics Drive-by-Wire system is a module that helps with fuel pedal potentiometer lag, and by doing so helps with clutch engagement. This is a simplified version but essentially what it will do is help with the performance of the car. It won't increase it, but if you like to drive "spirited" this will help.

 

[Peterson]

I have owned a '09 GTS with the F1 transmission system for 2 years and during that time put 65,000 Km (~40,000 miles) on it.

Clutch wear at the beginning of my ownership was 80% and at the end 60 % - that's 20% wear-rate of clutch used in 40,000 miles!!

My driving style?

1) I ALWAYS drove the car in Manual-SPORT mode (the mode its meant to be driven in!), and mostly changed gears around 3000 - 3500 rpms during city drives and 5500+ rpms on highways.

2) Contrary to what some folks are saying here, I always downshifted when necessary and this way actually used the engine braking to good effect - saved brake wear which I never needed to change during the tenure of the car!. The thrilling downshifting experience of this car is something I would never forgo in order to allegedly save a component's wear rate.

3) A technically well versed F1-transmission engineer will tell you that the real clutch killer is reversing on a steep inclination. I did this 2-3 times during the the time which I owned the car and the total travel distance in this setting was probably 100 m within 3 minutes in total.
4) Unfortunately very very few car techs have in-depth knowledge of the F1 tranny. I learned a lot from this guy (Warum ?Liqui Moly ? Zentralhydrauliköl? besser für die F1 Schaltung ist? | Unser Blog zu F1-Hydraulik.de) who makes a living out of debugging and/or fixing these - he even gets called by Maserati dealers ( and I hear even corporate) to help out. If you have issues strongly recommend to be in touch with him.

5) I used the Liqui moly fluid recommended from the site above for the F1 system (NOT for the transmission!) and the car shifts better (subjectively feels quicker & more grooved-in). It is supposed to have a positive effect on the operation of the system at a wider temperature range and on the longevity of the components -understandably because it is a fluid optimized for pressure based hydraulic systems like the F1 system is, and not on friction based systems (Maserati puts ATF friction based fluid on the car ...) Can only recommend the move.

6) Last but not least, always re-calibrate the F1 system after every inspection (latest after 20.000 Km or 13.000 miles or 2 years). I can say from experience that even certified dealers can get it wrong during the re-calibration. The thing with it is that this specific calibration should be done with a warmed-up car after the F1 system fluid has been changed (pump has obviously been bled during the fluid change procedure, etc) AND IMMEDIATELY after the self-learn procedure is complete the car should be driven -otherwise the system will not come out of maintenance mode and the calibrated setting will not go into effect!

I learned a lot about this system and had an issue which was solved by a properly done calibration alone and nothing more!

I highly recommend the GTS with the F1 tranny as it is a hell of a thrill to drive with that system and contrary to what many people say about it, if properly used and taken care of will evidently provide you with very very high mileages of enjoyment without clutch wear induced replacements.

Enjoy the car man - its a hell of a car and one of a Kind!

 

[Craig]

Definitely appreciate you input Peterson, lol, was really hoping we didn't turn the thread into a huge F1 thread with the various maintenance issues.

I have seen this gentleman's website before. I don't want to address all of it because it would kind of take the thread in the wrong direction. Let me just briefly focus on the F1 fluid.

First, I understand what you and he are saying but I don't want people thinking they have used the wrong stuff for their cars. First, the gentleman is actually incorrect. The first F1 cars introduced back in the U.S. actually didn't use ATF, and he's correct about it's wear characteristics. F1 hydraulics isn't as difficult as most would have you believe, IF you already work on hydraulics. These systems do run their own fluids, and you can get away with the recommended fluid for the GTS F1, which was Shell Spirax S4 ATF HDX.

However, when they were first introduced it here in the U.S. they didn't recommend any type of ATF they actually recommended Pentosin CHF 11S which ironically is a German Engineered pure synthetic Hydraulic Fluid, not an ATF. It's used in BMWs and Mercedes, and I still use it in all the F1 systems I service. BTW you'll see Liquid Moly is also just a full synthetic hydraulic oil as well. He made much out of it and some points I agree on, just not that all the systems run ATF. He actually listed the CC cars specifically running ATF, and they didn't. Actually here in the U.S. there's been a few people try to run different fluids in the older 4200's, which was the predecessor of the GS, and the GTS F1. It had mixed results, and not always good ones. There were only a few design changes in the GTS F1 system but not so much that it's a different system. Before I forget the recommended Shell does have a higher Viscosity. Travis above and I had a conversation not a week ago about this very issue.

 

[Peterson]

Hi Craig,

Thanks too for your post and for trying not to go off course

Good to hear they didn't put ATF oil on US cars!. In the EU they keep putting ATF oil... and that's what was on my car initially!

Keep up the good stuff

Cheers!