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Discussion Starter #61
UPDATE..
I was just informed that it is the f1 pump, also a bad strut and the e-brake cable is snapped.
 

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Discussion Starter #62
I hear the pump prime when I open the door, so I hope they're right smh this the second shop
 

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If it is the F1 pump, then the car will start when the pressure is restored. There is no sensor on the pump, so the car shuts down only because there is no pressure to move the clutch, not because the car recognizes the pump is bad. So, when the pump decides to work, then the pressure should build (assuming the pump primes for about 5 seconds) to exceed 40 bar and the car should start.

The scan tool will show the internal pressure, the pump trigger (on or off) and any codes stored relating to low pressure signals. I'm hoping the techs have actually looked at this data and not diagnosed your car over an internet search. If my calculations are correct, they're probably reading this post right now.
 

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Discussion Starter #64
Exactly... honestly I don't think it's the pump but I could be wrong. When the door opens I do hear it prime for about 5 seconds. I thought that mean it works....I'm about to call him now and ask some serious questions.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
Hey Damien, any updates? It's been 7 days since your last post.
Good luck and I hope it was something truly simple like a new battery.
Many of these units were sold with a battery tender when new I believe, so the manufacture knew they could indeed be electrically impaired so to speak.
The mechanic called me and said it's the f1 pump. I'm a little confused because I was told if you open the door you could hear it prime. And I can hear mines prime so I thought that meant it works....I really hope he's right because I do not wanna pay to fix something that's not the problem
 

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It may be running, but not reaching pressure, however I'd expect it to continue running. I'd be very interested if you could share his thought processes that led to his diagnosis.

C
 

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I am finding with these cars that because of the complexity and reliance on inbuilt systems, you really need to be going to a well known marque specialist, as many mechanics try to guess around the problem, and at your expense, randomly changing parts in the hope it cures the issue without properly researching the set up of the car if they have not worked on them extensively.

I would not risk the cost of changing the pump only to find it does not cure the issue. You have been without the car now for some time, get it shipped to the nearest trusted specialist, even if they are some distance away, would be my recommendation as you will still be going through all this for the next few months otherwise.

In my case as ours a project car we have the time to research and dabble, as I enjoy learning about the systems and how to resolve them, if the car was my daily I would be biting the bullet and paying for someone I feel real trust in, to fix it instead.
 

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Discussion Starter #69
I will update you all as soon as I hear something new. Its not my every day car lol....plus its winter here in Wisconsin, snow everywhere.
 

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?UPDATED? codes show CPS and the mechanic said sometimes it can be that the magnet was improperly installed after having a new clutch installed. So everything has to be dropped and he wants 2400 for the job total and additional fees if any parts are actually needed afterwards. The new question I have for you guys is,"Can you somehow see if the magnet is reversed without taking everything apart? But either way i guess I should just go for a whole clutch job anyways. When this is finished I will be selling fr 2005 QP with 83k miles and new clutch job. $10,500 smh I'm going to something fully auto, this is to much for Wisconsin driving lolbvs
 

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Your mechanic mentioned the magnet polarity because he read this forum and I, and many others, have warned against this when installing the sensor. In reality, it is unlikely that is the issue. If you have a F1 sensor code, then replace it.

Just be forewarned, moving to an automatic Maserati won't relieve you of all the headaches. The F1 system is a big deal for most, but there are other issues. If you browse through the ML forum, you'll clearly see that the F1 problems account for less than 10% of all the posts.

Finally, is the tech that is servicing your car the same as earlier in this thread? I highly recommend sending the car elsewhere. The clutch replacement is a very straight-forward task. Nothing special. Anyone can do it. The BIG problems come with the calibration. If the shop does not have the proper tools to calibrate it, then it will not shift right, or may not even start at all. Then, they will go back to the forum and somehow be led to believe that they can flash the TCU, or borrow another shop's aftermarket tool to quickly change the parameters to something close to what it needs to be. Then, when that doesn't work, they will shift the blame to something mechanical, like a bad actuator and 3 months later, you'll get a $14K repair estimate and tell you your TCU is bad. Ask me how I know.

Anyway, I'd like to see the car running again as I'm sure you would. Rather than giving advice, I like to tell people in a bind what I would do. Here's what I would do: I would spend a few hours researching (calling and speaking to them) equipped shops in a 500 mile radius and flat-bed services, find a competent repair facility and ship the car immediately to them. In a week or so, you'll get what seems to be the best phone call of your life, stating "your car is ready for pickup" and life will once again make sense. Your girl will appreciate this too, since Valentines Day is approaching fast and she won't be relegated to Walmart roses due to piling car repair bills.
 

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Discussion Starter #72
?UPDATED? codes show CPS and the mechanic said sometimes it can be that the magnet was improperly installed after having a new clutch installed. So everything has to be dropped and he wants 2400 for the job total and additional fees if any parts are actually needed afterwards. The new question I have for you guys is,"Can you somehow see if the magnet is reversed without taking everything apart? But either way i guess I should just go for a whole clutch job anyways. When this is finished I will be selling fr 2005 QP with 83k miles and new clutch job. $10,500 smh I'm going to something fully auto, this is to much for Wisconsin driving lolbvs
Your mechanic mentioned the magnet polarity because he read this forum and I, and many others, have warned against this when installing the sensor. In reality, it is unlikely that is the issue. If you have a F1 sensor code, then replace it.

Just be forewarned, moving to an automatic Maserati won't relieve you of all the headaches. The F1 system is a big deal for most, but there are other issues. If you browse through the ML forum, you'll clearly see that the F1 problems account for less than 10% of all the posts.

Finally, is the tech that is servicing your car the same as earlier in this thread? I highly recommend sending the car elsewhere. The clutch replacement is a very straight-forward task. Nothing special. Anyone can do it. The BIG problems come with the calibration. If the shop does not have the proper tools to calibrate it, then it will not shift right, or may not even start at all. Then, they will go back to the forum and somehow be led to believe that they can flash the TCU, or borrow another shop's aftermarket tool to quickly change the parameters to something close to what it needs to be. Then, when that doesn't work, they will shift the blame to something mechanical, like a bad actuator and 3 months later, you'll get a $14K repair estimate and tell you your TCU is bad. Ask me how I know.

Anyway, I'd like to see the car running again as I'm sure you would. Rather than giving advice, I like to tell people in a bind what I would do. Here's what I would do: I would spend a few hours researching (calling and speaking to them) equipped shops in a 500 mile radius and flat-bed services, find a competent repair facility and ship the car immediately to them. In a week or so, you'll get what seems to be the best phone call of your life, stating "your car is ready for pickup" and life will once again make sense. Your girl will appreciate this too, since Valentines Day is approaching fast and she won't be relegated to Walmart roses due to piling car repair bills.
Yes this is a different mechanic. He actually had a Maserati in the shop upon arrival. I will take what you said in consideration. Im new to all this and this forum has been very helpful. Your right, if it say sensor then that's what I should have fixed. I bought the car used initially so I don't know if it had a clutch job done or not and the guy that I bought it from I can't reach anymore smh. What is a reasonable total price to change out the sensor? I found one new for $250 bucks.
 

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OK, as long as he has a Leo or comparable programming tool. $2,500 is a bit steep for a F1 sensor change, considering I can do it in one day easy. Due to the high labor rate, it's sometimes good to change out everything but I say just wait until it's time. The only part on that car that typically leaves you stranded is the sensor, so everything else has a more or less predicable useful life.

For the record, $2K-$2,500 is typical for a complete change of clutch, thrust bearing, sensor, spigot, flywheel and program. I understand there is absorbent labor involved with those not familiar with these cars, but if the tech has done this before, this number is realistic.

You may also want them to address the suspension codes first (if possible), or simultaneously. Specifically test the ABS sensors. The way the F1 cars handle ABS warnings is strange due to the "manual" operation of the clutch. On a typical auto trans, a high risk ABS sensor failure will trigger the ABS warnings and trigger limp mode in the transmission, disallowing you to shift above gear 2. In the F1s, it tells the NCR to do the same thing, but it's not as easy as the clutch actuations don't always occur at the same time and the transmission can act erratically, sending various trans fault codes, suspension codes, etc. So, I'm in no way saying that you have a bad ABS sensor, but it stresses the importance of checking this and other things, during the diagnosis.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
OK, as long as he has a Leo or comparable programming tool. $2,500 is a bit steep for a F1 sensor change, considering I can do it in one day easy. Due to the high labor rate, it's sometimes good to change out everything but I say just wait until it's time. The only part on that car that typically leaves you stranded is the sensor, so everything else has a more or less predicable useful life.

For the record, $2K-$2,500 is typical for a complete change of clutch, thrust bearing, sensor, spigot, flywheel and program. I understand there is absorbent labor involved with those not familiar with these cars, but if the tech has done this before, this number is realistic.

You may also want them to address the suspension codes first (if possible), or simultaneously. Specifically test the ABS sensors. The way the F1 cars handle ABS warnings is strange due to the "manual" operation of the clutch. On a typical auto trans, a high risk ABS sensor failure will trigger the ABS warnings and trigger limp mode in the transmission, disallowing you to shift above gear 2. In the F1s, it tells the NCR to do the same thing, but it's not as easy as the clutch actuations don't always occur at the same time and the transmission can act erratically, sending various trans fault codes, suspension codes, etc. So, I'm in no way saying that you have a bad ABS sensor, but it stresses the importance of checking this and other things, during the diagnosis.
Thanks! You've really helped me, cause the way I was going I would've been broke by Monday smh. If I had a lift I would do the job myself and then send it to the shop to be programmed. Im sure I'll save big money. I will make sure to mention the things you've listed in order. In addition to that, I've read on here about guys changing this sensor out themselves and mentioning something about bleeding the system correctly. Do you have to bleed the system to change just the sensor? And if so how do you properly do that without sd2/3 Or leo
 

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No bleeding necessary. Technically, you should be able to change out the sensor without touching the parameters, but you should at least run a DEIS as this determines the clutch position (among other things) and the sensor sends much of that data to the NCR. If the clutch doesn't move properly for any reason, it will fail the DEIS. If you want to check or tighten your kiss point (PIS), then that's your chance also. The NCR will make micro adjustments as the clutch wears to keep the PIS consistent and performance uniform throughout the life of the clutch. Depending on how quickly your F1 sensor fails, it's possible that the NCR stored wrong data concerning the position of the clutch and any related parameters can be thrown off. You'll want to reset those just ensure you're starting off on the right foot.

Make sure he does not reset the degradation index as that will adjust on its own depending on torque delivery and slip.
 
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Discussion Starter #76
Perfect!
No bleeding necessary. Technically, you should be able to change out the sensor without touching the parameters, but you should at least run a DEIS as this determines the clutch position (among other things) and the sensor sends much of that data to the NCR. If the clutch doesn't move properly for any reason, it will fail the DEIS. If you want to check or tighten your kiss point (PIS), then that's your chance also. The NCR will make micro adjustments as the clutch wears to keep the PIS consistent and performance uniform throughout the life of the clutch. Depending on how quickly your F1 sensor fails, it's possible that the NCR stored wrong data concerning the position of the clutch and any related parameters can be thrown off. You'll want to reset those just ensure you're starting off on the right foot.

Make sure he does not reset the degradation index as that will adjust on its own depending on torque delivery and slip.
Perfect!
 

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Anytime, man. I've been through your pain and I speak to lots of people who go through it as well. Whatever I can do to help.

Also, I never "blame" techs for not knowing how to fix F1 cars. There are fewer and fewer running examples so learning about them, updating equipment and scan tools just doesn't make financial sense. The F1 systems, however, are very simple but only if you understand the different components and how they work together. This is why I try to explain things long form when I help people out, because there may be a reader stumped with a repair and something they read may make the lightbulb go off and really help them out. That's how it worked for me many times. Once the ambiguity is cleared and a you have a full understanding of how these machines work, every problem "makes sense" when it occurs, and it makes driving and owning the car a whole lot less stressful.
 

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Discussion Starter #80
I don't really see another way...Probably not a lot of those cars in Packer land....sorry....Jason
Good afternoon Jason, I finally got the F1 sensor replaced and cast starts now. The mechanic test drove it and stated that it's now in limp mode and won't go over 30??‍♂ it wasn't in limp mode before the fix so I'm confused now. It's still at the shop. Do you have any more good advice for me? Thanks
 
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