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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey everyone.

So at the moment my car is undergoing a major "transmission maintenance" (I'll "get started" about it later LOL) with Eddie over at Azzurocorsa motorsports...

His number is (562) 650-1732 and address is 22025 S. Avalon Blvd. Carson, CA 90745

A main part of the service to my car was changing the clutch, and Eddie and I spent some time doing it together (what can I say, I am a bit of a gearhead :p)

For you guys that say that the "14 hour" timeframe the dealer gives to change the clutch is BS, I have to say that you are sort of off ;)

The amount of work that it takes to change the clutch is astonishing... Remove exhaust, then the axles, then remove trunk lining, then remove the shields that go everywhere, then remove half of the subframe, then loosen the tranny and drop it, then PRRRRYYYY (and believe it it is hard) the tranny from the torque tube, and remove everything...

GOSH.

I wasnt able to get pictures... but WOW. Amazing, yet very time consuming and stressful haha. I might be able to get pictures of some stuff later...

BTW, Eddie's labor charge is about 1/2 what the dealers charge...

If any of you are thinking of changing the clutch or doing any maintenance... believe me, he is where you want to go. He has more knowledge than any of the techs I have ever seen, maserati or otherwise, is a great dude, and is half the cost of the dealership... Easy choice :)
 

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Hi Ali, what part of the clutch does actually get worn with use? And how worn it was it when you took it out? Just curious to understand this process a bit better.

Also, curious to know if you had a computer reading of the clutch wear and whether that was accurate upon actually seeing your old clutch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'll explain it as best I can, but I am sure Eddie can explain it 10-20x better... :D

There are three clutch parts that get "worn" DIRECTLY with use... The first are the two actual clutch discs in the clutch pack, along with the metal bits that get heated constantly... That was worn PRETTY bad. (6.5 mm of wear and 5mm is when it should die... and the metal was blue in some areas). The second thing that gets worn directly by the clutch is the actual flywheel. The flywheel normally doesnt need to be replaced with each clutch (I replaced mine at 45k... and it looked like it needed it). The last thing is the throwout bearing (I didnt replace it this time, it is like the flywheel in that it is not always necessary to change it).

On top of that, you should always change the clutch position sensor when you change the clutch because it is RIGHT there.

There are TWO ways to check the clutch wear using the SD2 and SD3 software... One is not accurate by any means, and Maserati themselves tell you not to use it (but almost all technicians and dealers DO use it...) The second is the accurate way that nobody seems to use (but Eddie LOL)...

The first method is the "percentage" test... You have probably heard about it and how unreliable it is... "SD3 says: Clutch is 150% worn" It works on pressure in the system, but it is very inaccurate because of all the variables that can affect that...

The second is by subtracting new clutch position from the old clutch postion to see how much wear there has been. There is appx 5mm of wear "allowed" until the car doesnt let you drive... When you do the math, you can say "Oh, I have 2.4 mm of wear, I am about 50% worn!" and so on...

As an example with both of those: there have been times that the SD3 says "100% worn" and the technician goes by it and the person changes their clutch, when in fact, if you do the math, he only had 2mm of wear (40% wear)....

Just a thought :) Again, Eddie knows this 1000000X better than I do... so maybe he can interject and give some advice.
 

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Ali, looking at the shop manual I marvel at the ability of ANYONE who can do it!
Just keep an eye out for leftover parts.... "Hey Eddie, what's this dohicky?" "Don't worry about it Ali, it's not important" ;)
 

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Wow, as if I had not heard enough positive things about Eddie, he let you assist in the work. Very few mechanics allow this and pawn it off on "oh our insurance doesn't allow that" or they don't really want you to know how a job takes x hours instead of y hours they charge.

Eddie seems like a very good guy, you guys are very lucky to have a mechanic like him.
 

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After all that labor to get at the clutch, I'd definitely have replaced the throwout bearing too! Or maybe my 1970's experience is out of date.
 

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Ali,

Please do take pictures of the flywheel and clutch pak - maybe use a ruler for scale.

My friend was with me when we saw Ali's new flywheel and clutch, and my buddy commented on the relative diminutive size of the components. The Maserati clutch is at least 25% smaller than the one that is on his Noble M12 GTO-3R. Which has a twin turbo Ford Duratec 3.0L V6 in a car that weighs about 1000 pounds less than ours.

It is not surprising now as to why the clutches wear out so quickly.
 

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Kevlar resurfacing

Yeah, actually we are rebuilding the clutch with kevlar. That's next on the list :)...
Can you explain the process for rebuilding with Kevlar? I still don't quite understand. Will you just take your old clutch plate and flywheel and send off to be resurfaced then reinstall as the OEM clutch kit?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Essentially, yes. I took the clutch and flywheel to ClutchMasters and talked to Luis about it. They take apart the pack, create new disks, resurface the flywheel (and un-bevel it). They also change the springs in the pressure plate.

Then you install it.

However, remember that kevlar acts much differently than organic clutch material does. It grabs faster and slips less, for one. When you use your foot, you can sort of counteract this, but the f1 system has parameters set that it uses all day, erry day... so it will grab, jerk, and most likely stall (especially if your PIS is too low)...

That's why you then need to start playing around with an SD2 or SD3 and change the various parameters for the clutch until it is "relatively drivable"

Once that is done... smooth (and slightly chattery and jerky) sailing ahead!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Did you check with Hill about a T/O bearing?
The TO bearing that hill has on their site is made for the 360 but they say that "it will work with the coupe."

I didnt want to risk the car flipping out and becoming a little girl because of a different weight, etc. TO bearing... especially since it is fine right now haha.
 

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I'll explain it as best I can, but I am sure Eddie can explain it 10-20x better... :D

There are three clutch parts that get "worn" DIRECTLY with use... The first are the two actual clutch discs in the clutch pack, along with the metal bits that get heated constantly... That was worn PRETTY bad. (6.5 mm of wear and 5mm is when it should die... and the metal was blue in some areas). The second thing that gets worn directly by the clutch is the actual flywheel. The flywheel normally doesnt need to be replaced with each clutch (I replaced mine at 45k... and it looked like it needed it). The last thing is the throwout bearing (I didnt replace it this time, it is like the flywheel in that it is not always necessary to change it).

On top of that, you should always change the clutch position sensor when you change the clutch because it is RIGHT there.

There are TWO ways to check the clutch wear using the SD2 and SD3 software... One is not accurate by any means, and Maserati themselves tell you not to use it (but almost all technicians and dealers DO use it...) The second is the accurate way that nobody seems to use (but Eddie LOL)...

The first method is the "percentage" test... You have probably heard about it and how unreliable it is... "SD3 says: Clutch is 150% worn" It works on pressure in the system, but it is very inaccurate because of all the variables that can affect that...

The second is by subtracting new clutch position from the old clutch postion to see how much wear there has been. There is appx 5mm of wear "allowed" until the car doesnt let you drive... When you do the math, you can say "Oh, I have 2.4 mm of wear, I am about 50% worn!" and so on...

As an example with both of those: there have been times that the SD3 says "100% worn" and the technician goes by it and the person changes their clutch, when in fact, if you do the math, he only had 2mm of wear (40% wear)....

Just a thought :) Again, Eddie knows this 1000000X better than I do... so maybe he can interject and give some advice.
Ali, I am glad to see that you've been sharing some of our tech talks. Brain you are WELCOME! It was my pleasure. BeeZee,DOHICKY?? As I explained to Ali the sd3/sd2 calculates it differently that at times its accurate and others its not depending on your vehicles software and the day and month it is lol..
The most accurate way to check is to retrieve from the Cambio Parameters is the New Clutch Closed Position (mm) and compare to Self Calibrated Current Clutch Position(mm).Example: NCCP (19.5mm) SCCCP (23.2mm)
SCCCP-NCCP=Clutch Wear (23.2mm-19.5mm=3.7mm)
The window is 0.1mm-5.0mm so about 1.3mm remain
I hope this was helpul..
 

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Very Impressive.........

Eddie:

Thanks for the explanation of "Clutch Life". Your math is VERY impressive - a Master Mechanic who can do math as well ---what a combination !!

P.S. - Unless I hear differently from you, I will be bringing my Maser in on Monday.

Carmine
 

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question

Ali/Eddie,

Question about kevlar clutch and resurfacing of the flywheel: Obviously you need to tear-down the OEM clutch and have the parts sent in to get them resurfaced. My question to you guys is: Do you still go out and buy a new clutch assembly and flywheel to replace the OEM? Otherwise your car would be in the shop until your Kevlar surfaced items come back to you correct? If this is the case, do you then just hold on to your newly "kevlar" coated clutch/flywheel items until the next time you have to replace your clutch or do you go right in and repalce the "new" clutch you had just bought?
 
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