[Niteroi]

Ok, I know this issue has been discussed many times before, but let's try to make it clear.

What's the difference between a bad throwout/pilot bearing and a slipping clutch? How do we know the difference?

This is a very important issue because one is covered under warranty and the other one is not.

Please, you guys that are experts, help us out! At this moment there are many of us struggling with this problem and being completely in the dealers hands!!

 

[GCalo]

Ok, I know this issue has been discussed many times before, but let's try to make it clear.

What's the difference between a bad throwout/pilot bearing and a slipping clutch? How do we know the difference? ---

You are referring to three separate things;

a) pilot bearing- it's within the flywheel center to support the end of the splined shaft from the tranny over which the clutch disk moves back and forth.

b) throwout bearing - rides on the fingers of the pressure plate and when called upon to do so pushes forward on the pp fingers to release pressure on the clutch disk.

c) slipping clutch- usually comes about due to bad springs in the pressure plate or from abuse. It "slips" when the pp has insufficient pressure or the clutch disk is severely worn.

Pilot bearing hard to know if bad w/o removing and checking it. It can squeel if it has lost lubrication.

T/O bearing usually makes noise when bad because it has lost it's internal lubrication. That can be from overheating (slipping clutch) or the failure of its grease seal.

Clutch disk slips (engine revs but car does not move much) and will often have a bakelite or burning type of smell.

It's that easy.

All three are tied together to make the clutch work properly.

 

[BigFoot]

Great post, thanks GCalo

 

[GCalo]

Great post, thanks GCalo

Simple mechanics and when you have done this for years it becomes quite simple.

This is not magic but those taking your $ to repair want you to think it's magic!

Moral- stay away from unproven technology, and I consider F1/DuoSelect unproven. It gets very expensive. What I see it has proven is that it takes $ bills from your wallet.

Do you really need a computer to shift your car?

 

[BigFoot]

Do you really need a computer to shift your car?

You haven't seen me drive! LOL

 

[GCalo]

You haven't seen me drive! LOL

Ok I understand!

The F1 needs more maturation. The concept is neat but it's function has a way to go.

Niteroi should understand (as well as all other F1/DuoSelect owners) that the set-up is not designed for extensive backing-up. The system slips the clutch considerably under those circumstances.

That part needs more thoughtful design.

 

[BigFoot]

Ok I understand!

The F1 needs more maturation. The concept is neat but it's function has a way to go.

Niteroi should understand (as well as all other F1/DuoSelect owners) that the set-up is not designed for extensive backing-up. The system slips the clutch considerably under those circumstances.

That part needs more thoughtful design.

That I agree with completely.

The F1/CambioCorsa/etc system is made by an Italian company called Giordano e designed by Ferrari, and now finding its use throughout the Fiat cars, from the 500 to the Enzo, in various shapes and forms.

What is going to be real interesting is the new dual clutch system that Ferrari has developed for the California and if that will be then used on non-Ferraris too.

 

[eddievanhalen]

I don't get all the technicalities but does this mean clutch wear is likely to be an issue on the Granturismo-S?

Cheers,

Ed

 

[Niteroi]

I avoid using reverse as much as possible, and always for a very short time. Never used the auto mode, not even once to try it out. Always drive in Sport mode, changing gears above 4,000 rpm. Most of the time shift to neutral when coming to a stop and always shift to neutral at stop light and etc.

Even doing all of that I ended up with a glazed clutch! At least that's what the dealer is telling me. How come?

The point of this thread is, how can the dealer, and we, know when it's a glazed or worn clutch and not a T/O bearing without actually opening the transmission? What's the difference in the symptoms? The only thing I know is that both squeak!

Thank you for your help guys!

 

[BigFoot]

I don't get all the technicalities but does this mean clutch wear is likely to be an issue on the Granturismo-S?

Cheers,

Ed

Clutch wear is an issue on all non-automatic sport cars, as far as I know.

 

[eddievanhalen]

Sorry - I meant moreso than usual with the new technology. I assumed that the F1/Duoselect system mentioned by GCalo was similar to that used in the Granturismo S.



Cheers,

Ed

 

[BigFoot]

Sorry - I meant moreso than usual with the new technology. I assumed that the F1/Duoselect system mentioned by GCalo was similar to that used in the Granturismo S.



Cheers,

Ed

My two cents:

The GT S system is set up similar to that of the Ferrari 599, I doubt it'll have problems.

The Coupe/GranSport models had a distrinctly older system, which is not as efficient as the one in the GT S.

 

[Bcube]

The F1/CambioCorsa/etc system is made by an Italian company called Giordano e designed by Ferrari, and now finding its use throughout the Fiat cars, from the 500 to the Enzo, in various shapes and forms.

What is going to be real interesting is the new dual clutch system that Ferrari has developed for the California and if that will be then used on non-Ferraris too.

Bigfoot,

For the sake of accuracy, the company is called Graziano Transmission Group
http://www.gtgears.com/frames.html

They also supply the SportShift tranny for Aston Martin.

 

[GrndLkNatv]

Clutch Longevity...

The CC is unproven for long term street use but it is improving quickly.

This year, due to regulation changes in F1, a tranny and clutch must last 4 races; hence the development of the new technology in the Ferrari California.

The version of the CC that we currently have is expensive to maintain, is somewhat reliable but definately not a ZF transmission or the GM THM automatic that we are all used to driving that goes for 100k+ miles.

In the next generation of Maserati and Ferrari automobiles this technology will mature, starting with the California, and it will be as reliable as any normal manual transmission could be...

 

[lss]

The CC is unproven for long term street use but it is improving quickly.

This year, due to regulation changes in F1, a tranny and clutch must last 4 races; hence the development of the new technology in the Ferrari California.

The version of the CC that we currently have is expensive to maintain, is somewhat reliable but definately not a ZF transmission or the GM THM automatic that we are all used to driving that goes for 100k+ miles.

In the next generation of Maserati and Ferrari automobiles this technology will mature, starting with the California, and it will be as reliable as any normal manual transmission could be...

Wonder if its possible to change our CC transmission on Grandsports to the new transmission announced for the Ferrari California and how pricey would it be?

 

[GrndLkNatv]

Not sure on the price...

But I would imagine it would be a bolt in physically, not sure about the electronics though, I am sure they are different....

 

[Bcube]

The DCT in the California is a first generation item - think of the F1 system first introduced in the 1998 F355. Think I would wait a bit for production improvements/upgrades...

 

[GCalo]

The point of this thread is, how can the dealer, and we, know when it's a glazed or worn clutch and not a T/O bearing without actually opening the transmission?

If your clutch is not properly grabbing it is worn! It's a guess that it's galzed, but it does not matter. The clutch needs to be replaced.

The wear also could have occurred because the PIS (point of initial slippage) was never properly set or adjusted in your car and that takes and SD2 instrument.

A bad T/O bearing makes noise but will usually still work. They usually don't just fail. And when they make noise they have no effect on the clutch disk.

A bad clutch disk is usually due to worn or weak PP springs.

A clutch is never replaced (or should not be) w/o replacing a T/O bearing as well.

 

[barbuckle]

how can the dealer, and we, know when it's a glazed or worn clutch and not a T/O bearing without actually opening the transmission? What's the difference in the symptoms? The only thing I know is that both squeak!

I presume glazed clutches on manual cars are due to not fuly engaging the clutch while revving?

Just a thought - how can you be accused of "glazing" a clutch on a cambiocorsa system? Surely if the settings are correct the software "protects" the system from abuse? In other words the robotic shift system must have glazed the clutch for you since you have no clutch pedal!
So how can the driver be blamed for this?

Oh yes - I had a new clutch fitted a couple of years back and it "squeaked" when engaging first - it was replaced by the dealer who told me it was a fault in the manufacture of the clutch. Not had any problems since.

 

[Niteroi]

I presume glazed clutches on manual cars are due to not fuly engaging the clutch while revving?

Just a thought - how can you be accused of "glazing" a clutch on a cambiocorsa system? Surely if the settings are correct the software "protects" the system from abuse? In other words the robotic shift system must have glazed the clutch for you since you have no clutch pedal!
So how can the driver be blamed for this?

That's a very good point! How could the service manager say that I was probably driving too fast? And the funny thing is that the technician told me the opposite, that I was probably driving too slow!!

Well, they are now offering to do the work under warranty if I pay for the parts. Is it a good deal? Or should I fight for having the whole work done under warranty?