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P.S. The BMW S50B30 was the first production engine to crack 100hp/L for road use in 1991. The Honda F22C/1 was 124hp/L in 2000. Ferarri only matched that output with the 4.5L F136F in 2010. None of the Maserati engines have hit that specific output yet so I'm not really sure you're making much of a point. All engines obey the same laws of physics last time I checked.
As I said before, I'm not criticizing your ambitions, I just think you're vastly underestimating the complexity of a streetable ITB setup, but if the tuner magazines tell you it's easy, then go for it, I'll be waiting for results, just please be a man and let us know when you give up, I'll be sure to do the same and eat crow if you succeed.

What does the fact that these engines have not cracked 100hp/liter have anything to do with what we've discussed?! ...and yeah, all engines obey the laws of physics, but that doesn't make them all the same, or even similar. Different displacements, component weights, valve sizes, compression ratios, cylinder orientation, combustion chamber design, head design, and a million other variables make huge differences is how you'll set up ITB, that's why there's so much development involved, but you seem too have it all figured out with your CAD drawings, so I trust it will be a quick and inexpensive process. :rolleyes:

PS. The Honda F22C isn't the engine to which you're referring, that one wasn't built until 2004. The F20C is what you were thinking, again, you thought you knew this because you read it somewhere. I know because I have 3 F20C's one of which happens to be a 280 WHP NA ITB setup... Imagine that.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Those aren't CAD drawings, those are screenshots of CFD analysis that was used to validate a design that was brought to market. That particular screenshot was made for one of the few things I've done that wasn't under an NDA. Here are the results:

129314


The application was a single make race series using the BMW M42/4 engine.

Here is the improvement logged as a percentage change over a base run:

129315



An LS1 kit I worked on sells for $2500-$3500 USD depending on street or race use. Considering a single supercharger not fitted, tuned or otherwise out of its box costs more than that I'm really very certain that an ITB kit is cheaper. The maximum performance is less sure, but sometimes its just can't measure what people find fun. If it cost you more to bolt on some ITBs then you've been ripped off, hard.

When I said I worked on developing intake and extraction systems, it wasn't a metaphor. I do this work and people pay me for it. So yes, I literally know what is involved in making streetable ITBs.

I'm not sure why its so easy to mine salt on this forum, but it is super entertaining.
 

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An LS1 kit I worked on sells for $2500-$3500 USD depending on street or race use. Considering a single supercharger not fitted, tuned or otherwise out of its box costs more than that I'm really very certain that an ITB kit is cheaper. The maximum performance is less sure, but sometimes its just can't measure what people find fun. If it cost you more to bolt on some ITBs then you've been ripped off, hard.

When I said I worked on developing intake and extraction systems, it wasn't a metaphor. I do this work and people pay me for it. So yes, I literally know what is involved in making streetable ITBs.

I'm not sure why its so easy to mine salt on this forum, but it is super entertaining.
Again, for every gleam of intelligence you post, you post equal, opposite, nonsense. Sure, you can bolt on some production ITB's for $3k, but that is a VASTLY different exercise than developing them from scratch, on a platform which is inherently not easy to work on, has next to no technical data available, and exceedingly difficult to tune. You aren't mining salt my friend, you aren't bothering me a bit, I just don't mind sharing my experience and opinion when I think something smells fishy. That said, again, I hope you succeed, truly, it'd be cool, I just think you're way out over your skis, you're underestimating the complexity of the project by 1000%
 

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Discussion Starter #24
I literally developed that LS1 kit. I literally said 'an LS1 kit I worked on'. I developed them from scratch. So a kit developed from scratch, by myself, for 8 cylinders, is sold by the client for a profit at $3500 USD, or less than an unboxed supercharger.

For comparison, ITBs for Jenvey for an S2000 Honda S2000 - SF51 Taper Kit
A supercharger kit for an S2000 HKS GT2 Supercharger Kit for S2000 (AP2 / F22C) - Garage88

You'll notice one costs more than double the other...
 

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I literally developed that LS1 kit. I literally said 'an LS1 kit I worked on'. I developed them from scratch. So a kit developed from scratch, by myself, for 8 cylinders, is sold by the client for a profit at $3500 USD, or less than an unboxed supercharger.

For comparison, ITBs for Jenvey for an S2000 Honda S2000 - SF51 Taper Kit
A supercharger kit for an S2000 HKS GT2 Supercharger Kit for S2000 (AP2 / F22C) - Garage88

You'll notice one costs more than double the other...
Haha yes, I notice the production ITB's are cheaper than a production supercharger kit. That was never my argument, I only stated that it'd be faster, easier, cheaper, and yield better results both in power and drivability to start with a universal, self contained, centrifugal blower, than to build from scratch, and tune a set of ITB's that aren't going to suck ass on the street. If you notice in your comparison, even in the production kits, the more expensive supercharger kits are complete. Every bracket, every hose, fuel injectors, and most include a tuning solution. The ITB's you posted include just the throttle bodies, again which is where I think you're missing the bulk of the issue here. Simply bolting on a set of ITB's won't work at all. You'll have to carefully develop them in conjunction with the exhaust side, test, redesign, repeat, many times. Then when you are finally making power, you'll have to tune for drivability in every altitude, ambient temprature, humidity, and atmospheric condition you intend to encounter so it doesn't run like garbage 99% of the time. Let's just start with tuning... are you planning to use MAF, or converting to MAP?
 

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Discussion Starter #26
On road cars I always design with keeping the MAF in mind. It isn't uncommon for people to lose the plenum and run and Alpha-N tune for the sound, but that has its own draw backs. I also don't do tuning, I design hardware.

Earlier I linked to Vortech and a supercharger on its own cost more than an ITB kit.

FI will yield more power obviously, but ITBs don't 'suck on the street' unless you buy junk products. Think it through logically. Lets say you go absolute minimum effort and don't want to change anything in the power band, just want the ITB feel. So you cut the existing manifold, put some flanges on, and bolt some ITBs between the injector and the plenum. Congratulations you have an ITB kit with zero dynamic changes other than an improved throttle feel and a bit more low-down torque because you have better fuel mixing at partial throttle from the turbulence. That would set you back about $800 in parts and labour.
 

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P.S. The BMW S50B30 was the first production engine to crack 100hp/L for road use in 1991. The Honda F22C/1 was 124hp/L in 2000. Ferarri only matched that output with the 4.5L F136F in 2010. None of the Maserati engines have hit that specific output yet so I'm not really sure you're making much of a point. All engines obey the same laws of physics last time I checked.
Umm, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Ducati, and others have been producing engines with well over 100hp/liter for decades. Getting big engines to do it is not the same. Just saying.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
I'm beginning to think you're either a fantasy reader/know it all type, or someone who's enjoyed some success building and tuning Hondas or Mitsubishis or something, who assumes the principles will align here.

jlobo941 seemed to think there was something bad about building other cars. I was simply making the point that the principles do align; that is literally why we're taught them. And thank you for continuing to make that point that anyone can make a high powered engine.

PSA: This thread is about helping people bolt in some headers before it got derailed.
 

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jlobo941 seemed to think there was something bad about building other cars. I was simply making the point that the principles do align; that is literally why we're taught them. And thank you for continuing to make that point that anyone can make a high powered engine.

PSA: This thread is about helping people bolt in some headers before it got derailed.
Point out where I said building other cars was bad... I'll wait.

FYI, I think the thread began to derail when you started saying uninformed things, like the Larini headers are no different than the factory headers other than ceramic coating. Having never seen a set, I could see how you've come to that conclusion, as you have about most other things, but having actually had all 3 sets, US catted, UK catless, and Larini, I can tell you with all certainty that you're wrong. That being said, I never criticized your suggestion on the scrap headers idea, I just pointed out that if you're just trying to get rid of the cats for sound or preventative measures, they can be cut out without removing the manifolds. If you want a performance gain, considering the 10 hours or so involved in the change out, and being able to bolt in the mid pipes, rather than having to redesign them, the Larinis aren't a bad choice. At the old $5k pricepoint, I'd tend more toward your logic. At the current $2900, it just doesn't make sense to me.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
What do I even say to that? I'm pretty sure $1000 is less than $2900...

What does Larini offer that the extra $1900 will buy? Inform me.
 

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What do I even say to that? I'm pretty sure $1000 is less than $2900...

What does Larini offer that the extra $1900 will buy? Inform me.
By that rationale, $200 is less than $1000, so why not just cut out the cats?

I was using your $1600 price point, which I assumed included the modification necessary to make them drop in. Now that we're at a $1300 difference, you get ceramic coating, stepped upper primaries, and actual collectors.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
For $1k you'll get a set of headers that are fitted to drop in, and probably with the ceramic coating too. Most of the price variation will come if the cheapest supplier runs out quickly or if there is a specific request.
 
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