[rwolfjr]

So I am throwing codes that say high temp cat failure and the slow down light came on. So I am confused when I read about cats and pre cats. Is there 4 catalytic converts on a Spyder? I am looking at buying something like the Supersprint Cat Delete but want to make sure it’s actaully deleting all the cats if there is 4 of them. Thanks for answering what will probably end up being a not so smart question lol!

 

[Oishi]

On US 4200s there are 4 cats, one each built into the headers, and 2 secondary cats in the flattened pipes that run under the steering rack. The Cat delete pipes only take care of the secondary ones, you can gut the primaries, but you will probably have to have the ecu re-programmed.
Check on here, some have had new cats welded into the headers.
Good luck.

 

[jlobo941]

Oishi is right, however there are numerous ways to skin this cat (pardon the pun). The first thing you'll have to determine is whether or not you have to pass vehicle inspections or emissions. If not, the most cost effective way to handle this is to have an exhaust shop gut the primary cats on the manifolds, and cut out and replace the secondarys with pipe. To defeat the check engine light, you will need to use spark plug non-foulers. They come in different lengths and angles, this will be a little trial and error as if the O2 sensor is too near the stream, you'll throw a code. If the O2 sensor is too far out of the stream, you'll throw a code. It took me about 3 different configurations before I got it right, and haven't seen a code in years. A reflash used to be an option, but unfortunately since the new EPA legislation kicked in, the options to disable emissions equipment has been disabled in most if not all of the tuning software, as well as tuners being unwilling to risk doing it.

If you wish to remain emissions compliant, you will want to weld in sport cats to the mid pipes, you don't need to replace the mains after they are gutted, but you'll still have to do the non-fouler trick.

Those are the most cost effective solutions for both scenarios. I went with Larini headers, catless midpipes, and valved rear boxes from Formula Dynamics, and couldn't be happier. Larini does make a catted midpipe if you want to do that instead, sky is the limit. Above are some pics of the non-foulers I used, notice one is longer than the other, had to dial that in with trial and error.

All that said, you may want to address this ASAP. I don't believe there is consensus on this, but supposedly when the main cats start overheating and breaking down, the engine is able to actually suck chunks of the matrix in through the exhaust valves because the engines have a good amount of overlap. I'm not certain of the particular risk, but I am certain if that does happen, it'll ruin a near priceless engine.

 

[rwolfjr]

So I found to two different versions of the cat delete, one looks like it’s just does the back cats and the second looks like it deletes both cats, but I could be wrong on this.

 

[jlobo941]

You've posted two different styles of mid pipes used to delete the secondary cats. The first one is for US market cars which have the primary cats on the exhaust manifolds, and the second is for European cars which do not have cats on their manifolds. I've attached pics of both styles of manifolds.

 

[lambertius]

Stick your head under your car and take a few photos of your exhaust and I'll be able to tell you which exhaust system you've got. I also have access to headers for a few different options so once I know what you have fitted I can give you a bit of direction and help you source parts. You most likely have the Euro 4 headers (being a US car) so as the others have said the easiest solution is to cut out the cat from the existing header but there are other options.

Below is a video I made on customising the exhaust but I also cover how the factory exhaust was laid out.

 

[rwolfjr]

Stick your head under your car and take a few photos of your exhaust and I'll be able to tell you which exhaust system you've got. I also have access to headers for a few different options so once I know what you have fitted I can give you a bit of direction and help you source parts. You most likely have the Euro 4 headers (being a US car) so as the others have said the easiest solution is to cut out the cat from the existing header but there are other options.

Below is a video I made on customising the exhaust but I also cover how the factory exhaust was laid out.

Thanks for the help I will get some picks and post them!

 

[rwolfjr]

Thanks for the help I will get some picks and post them!
[/QUOT
The exhaust is as I was told, the pre cats look like the are a part of the header. What are my options to do a cat delete of all 4 of them?

 

[lambertius]

Cats are definitely in the header - so the cheapest solution is to cut the cats out in situ and install a cat defeat for the O2 sensor.

Every other solution from that point onwards gets more custom/aftermarket. If you want to source a set of the OEM headers without the cats, I have a set here in Australia.

 

[rwolfjr]

Cats are definitely in the header - so the cheapest solution is to cut the cats out in situ and install a cat defeat for the O2 sensor.

Every other solution from that point onwards gets more custom/aftermarket. If you want to source a set of the OEM headers without the cats, I have a set here in Australia.

Just wondering a couple of things with your headers, how hard are they to install ( I have a lift) and will a cat delete pipe then work for the other cats and will all this basically bolt up to the rest of my existing exhaust?

 

[rwolfjr]

View attachment 143044
View attachment 143043

Oishi is right, however there are numerous ways to skin this cat (pardon the pun). The first thing you'll have to determine is whether or not you have to pass vehicle inspections or emissions. If not, the most cost effective way to handle this is to have an exhaust shop gut the primary cats on the manifolds, and cut out and replace the secondarys with pipe. To defeat the check engine light, you will need to use spark plug non-foulers. They come in different lengths and angles, this will be a little trial and error as if the O2 sensor is too near the stream, you'll throw a code. If the O2 sensor is too far out of the stream, you'll throw a code. It took me about 3 different configurations before I got it right, and haven't seen a code in years. A reflash used to be an option, but unfortunately since the new EPA legislation kicked in, the options to disable emissions equipment has been disabled in most if not all of the tuning software, as well as tuners being unwilling to risk doing it.

If you wish to remain emissions compliant, you will want to weld in sport cats to the mid pipes, you don't need to replace the mains after they are gutted, but you'll still have to do the non-fouler trick.

Those are the most cost effective solutions for both scenarios. I went with Larini headers, catless midpipes, and valved rear boxes from Formula Dynamics, and couldn't be happier. Larini does make a catted midpipe if you want to do that instead, sky is the limit. Above are some pics of the non-foulers I used, notice one is longer than the other, had to dial that in with trial and error.

All that said, you may want to address this ASAP. I don't believe there is consensus on this, but supposedly when the main cats start overheating and breaking down, the engine is able to actually suck chunks of the matrix in through the exhaust valves because the engines have a good amount of overlap. I'm not certain of the particular risk, but I am certain if that does happen, it'll ruin a near priceless engine.

Is it the pre cat that cause most of cat overheating issue, can I tell from the scan code which cats are failing? The reason I am asking is if I coulee leave the pre cats and just replace the back cats?

 

[jlobo941]

As far as I know, the primary cats are the only ones with the means to sense an overheat, someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no sensors near upstream or anywhere downstream of the secondaries. If you are getting the code, it's seeing the primaries.

Below is my write up on installing Larini headers. It should apply to removal and replacement of factory manifolds. That said, BEFORE you embark on this journey, try the exhaust shop route. On my first 4200GT, I had my primaries gutted, and secondaries deleted for under $400, and didn't have to lift a finger. The car performed well, and sounded great for years. If you are Hell bent on replacing the manifolds, go in with a plan to make the most of your work and the results. The Larini headers are still available from FD, while they seem expensive, on hour 9 or 10 of the replacement procedure, you may see the additional value over a stock alternative.

All finished, in all, I would call it pretty straight forward if you have the proper tools and equipment. I'll list the procedure now (A moderator may move this post to top and or sticky), but I caution, this is definitely NOT for the "I do my own oil changes" home mechanic. It can be done without a lift, but that will make things a lot more time consuming and less comfortable. I'm not going to post pictures or go too into depth, if you need pictures, you probably should sit this one out. It can be done by one person, but I'd suggest having a competent helper as it will literally cut the project time in half. Having done it, and spending a lot of time to find every way it's not done, if I had to do it again, I could probably get it done in about 6 hours using these instructions.

First things first, be ready to do an oil change and coolant change. Get the fluids and washers you'll need, as well as Maserati part #109649 (Oil pipe gasket) and part # 154191 (Water intake cover gasket).

Starting under the hood, remove all engine covers, loosen both ignition junctions, coolant jug, and power steering reservoir. No need to completely remove, just create some flexibility. Remove the bolts holding the emissions pipe to both manifolds.

Now lift the car, remove both front wheels, and both wheel liners. You will see that you have access to some of the manifold nuts on both sides.

Drain the oil and coolant.

Remove all 4 O2 sensors, and make note from which side they came.

Remove the bolts holding the manifolds to the mid pipes.

Remove dust covers and bolts from the lower engine mounts on both sides.

Starting with the passenger side, remove the oil pipe from near the filter housing, and the other end at the bottom of the tank. It doesn't have to come all the way out.

Remove the lower rad hose, and the coolant junction on the side of the block.

Remove the heat shields.

You will now be able to access all of the manifold nuts, if you need additional clearance, lift the motor on that side alone.

Once all the nuts are off the manifold can be maneuvered little by little, while lifting and lowering the engine until it's out.

Driver's side is the same procedure, minus the oil and coolant lines.

Install the headers the same way they came off.

Soak all of the exhaust nuts in penetrating oil, this will save immeasurable time, pain, and frustration, as it will all but allow you to spin the exhaust nuts all the way to the flange by hand, instead of 1/8 of a turn at a time with a wrench.

The rest of the installation is the reverse of the removal...

One side note, I found that the exhaust shields no longer fit the new headers. I've found the ceramic coating to do a good job at keeping the heat contained, but I may wrap the oil pipe and ac compressor in fiber foil heat shielding eventually.

Ultimately, I feel it was worth every penny. The car and exhaust note is completely transformed especially at higher RPM (and I had catless exhaust manifolds to begin with). These used to go for over $5k, but FD has dropped the price to a more reasonable $2995, definitely check them out 4200 Larini Systems - Sport Exhaust Headers

Good luck, and feel free to PM me if you have questions.

 

[lambertius]

The primary cats are the only ones that throw codes. If you remove the cats they will also throw a code without a defeat, being removed in the ECU or an equivalent cat used to replace them.

The older factory headers are the cheapest way to get proper headers into the car and they will bolt straight up. There are a couple of things to keep in mind:

1- You won't be able to reuse the existing heat shielding. You can wrap the headers, ceramic coat them, source the older heat shielding, or whatever makes you feel good. They are double skinned so they are better than running no heat shielding, and they sit further off the block than the cats in the header.
2- You will need a custom mid-section made between the old headers and cross pipe. If you keep the secondary cats in place and just make an adapter between the headers and the secondary cats it wouldn't even take two hours for an exhaust shop to complete the adapter. You will need a special flange laser cut, but I can give you that if you need it and any exhaust shop could cut one in a pinch.
3- Installing the headers is easy on the LHS. The RHS however...
4- You will need to remove the radiator reserviour and a bunch of other stuff in the way. If I recall correctly I needed to remove the dry sump pump. You will need to put a bit of heat sleeve over the dry sump line from the pump as it runs close to the headers.

The benefit of the Larini is they will bolt up to the existing mid section and keep the heat shielding. The downside is it costs 3 times as much (at least here in Australia).

I can source the headers easily enough here, it would be about $2000AUD + whatever shipping is at the moment. That would include the flange to match the headers with whatever custom mid section you go with. Then you've probably got a full days labour swapping the headers and making a mid section. If you want to do a fancy mid section factor in a full days labour for that. Whatever that costs you or a shop you can factor in. If you do it yourself over a couple of days with a beer and listening to Meshuggah at therapeutic levels then it sounds like your labour is free. So yeah USD to AUD conversion is pretty boss right now, so that is probably $5 in freedom units!

 

[rwolfjr]

As far as I know, the primary cats are the only ones with the means to sense an overheat, someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no sensors near upstream or anywhere downstream of the secondaries. If you are getting the code, it's seeing the primaries.

Below is my write up on installing Larini headers. It should apply to removal and replacement of factory manifolds. That said, BEFORE you embark on this journey, try the exhaust shop route. On my first 4200GT, I had my primaries gutted, and secondaries deleted for under $400, and didn't have to lift a finger. The car performed well, and sounded great for years. If you are Hell bent on replacing the manifolds, go in with a plan to make the most of your work and the results. The Larini headers are still available from FD, while they seem expensive, on hour 9 or 10 of the replacement procedure, you may see the additional value over a stock alternative.

The county I live in I do not have to have emission testing, however there is no exhaust shop in our small area, I but that a exhaust shop in areas that do require emission testing will not do it. If the pre cats are probably not the issue can I leave them alone and just install a rear cat delete?

 

[jlobo941]

The county I live in I do not have to have emission testing, however there is no exhaust shop in our small area, I but that a exhaust shop in areas that do require emission testing will not do it. If the pre cats are probably not the issue can I leave them alone and just install a rear cat delete?

I think you may be misunderstanding. The pre-cats are the primaries. The ones that have failed on your car are the ones attached to the manifolds.

 

[rwolfjr]

I think you may be misunderstanding. The pre-cats are the primaries. The ones that have failed on your car are the ones attached to the manifolds.

Got it thanks. I guess I will look up if I can gut the cats myself and how involved it is! Thanks for all you assistance. Don't think I will be able to find a shop around me in Colorado that would do it.

 

[jlobo941]

Got it thanks. I guess I will look up if I can gut the cats myself and how involved it is! Thanks for all you assistance. Don't think I will be able to find a shop around me in Colorado that would do it.

You just happen to be in luck... I too am in Colorado, and had it done here.

 

[rwolfjr]

You just happen to be in luck... I too am in Colorado, and had it done here.

Where, I live in Elizabeth? DId you have them just gut the cats or also install the rear cat delete pipe.

 

[jlobo941]

Where, I live in Elizabeth? DId you have them just gut the cats or also install the rear cat delete pipe.

Englewood. You are about 35 miles out. I had them gut the primaries, and replace the secondarys with straight pipe.

 

[rwolfjr]

Englewood. You are about 35 miles out. I had them gut the primaries, and replace the secondarys with straight pipe.

that would work, how long ago did you have it done, what shop is it and anyone you talked to? i can always triailer up to them since it sounds like i should not drive it with high temp car failure. did you tell them it was for off road use only lol.