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Discussion Starter #1
Formula Dynamics is currently working on a Performance Chip for the QP. We have already started development on the chip however we need more time with a car here in Las Vegas. One QP owner on this forum drove up from CA a few days ago and we started the development however he needed to drive back before we had completed development.

So if you're in Las Vegas or are planning on driving out this way for a few days of relaxation, please contact us if you're interested in getting more power from your QP. We will install the chip for free and tune it on your car to be sure that you get the best possible result.
 

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Awesome, I hope you are able to complete the project. I will bump this topic to the top as a sticky for a week to help.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Here's common verbage from most Performance Parts Companies:

No, it is illegal for a dealership to void your warranty simply because you have modified your vehicle. It is the dealership's responsibility to prove that a modification was the reason for a failure. With that said, some dealerships are more performance oriented and are more willing to work with customers. We suggest consulting with your local dealership regarding their warranty specifics. For additional questions, see the Magnuson Moss Warranty at http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=8124

Anything is possible, here is our quote on the same question in another thread regarding the chip:

Your opinions are all understood and respected. Our experience is that a claim may be denied for an affected part, some reasonable connection must be made to the failure. Otherwise your lawyer can be a big help here using case law. We have a customer that won a big case against Dodge for his Viper, I'm sure he'll agree that it was a headache, but he did win.

FYI, our ECU mods DO NOT physically touch the ECU or Reflash the ECU. We install outside of the unit and leave the stock program unchanged. We do splice into the harness which is very difficult to detect, but easy to remove later. No parts are mailed or replaced, only our piggy back is added which makes the neccessary adjustments to create more power.

Our competitors Reflash the ECU which can be detected even if the factory program was re-installed later because there is a counter in the ECU which records how any times the ECU memory was overwritten. The advantage to this approach is that the wiring harness is not touched, but your $2500 ECU has to be mailed back and forth and they must do a perfect job so as not to inadvertently affect the other areas of the program.

In the end, chips are a very safe mod. The factory may lead you to believe otherwise, however all we do is what they can't do for emissions purposes. Basically, we adjust the Ignition Timing and correct the Air to Fuel Ratio to make more power. Chips have been around for a while, they do work and I've never seen any problems on a stock car.

Hope this helps...
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these piggyback chips seem to be a waste of time.. This is basically a glorified version of the $15 chips they sell on eBay for Hondas..

"In the end, chips are a very safe mod. The factory may lead you to believe otherwise, however all we do is what they can't do for emissions purposes."

Emissions, gas mileage, good operability in all climates, failsafe against bad gas, ethanol differences, etc... (I've done pre-detonation fuel tests with a highly modified supercharged car running Haltech stand alone, and not all 93 \ 91 octanes are the same. There were a couple brands that knocked sooner and more often than others, even a 93 that was worse than a 91) Ethanol makes a difference because it's 'correct' air to fuel ratio is 9:1 vs gasoline's 14.7:1, and I believe it burns hotter in general.

"Basically, we adjust the Ignition Timing and correct the Air to Fuel Ratio to make more power."

They adjust the resistance\voltage values of the air temperature sensor, air pressure sensor, O2 sensor, and others to fool the ECU into enriching the fuel mixture to make a few more horsepower.

"Chips have been around for a while, they do work and I've never seen any problems on a stock car."

Chips have been around as long as EFI, with mixed results. Older systems could be fooled into making a good amount more power, especially when the engines weren't tuned very well leaving the factories. They are also very capable of making more power on Turbo-charged cars.

These Maserati engines aren't coming off the line at GM with bad tolerances and software to make up for that.. These are highly tuned performance engines built by arguably the best engine builder in the world with software to match.

There are real questions about possible long-term issues with using these chips that could be legitimate warranty questions on many engine-related claims with no more horsepower gains than installing a Tubi and freer flowing air intake, and then driving the hell out of the car for two weeks while the stock ECU re-learns your driving style.


Unless of course you've got some before and after dyno testing with a car that's had its ECU reset and driven hard for a week before getting on the dyno, and then another follow up test after installing the chip.


I don't want to rain on your parade, as I've got customers that would love to have something like this if it indeed works regardless of the possible warranty issues. I just don't see much room for improvement without drastic modifications to the engine.
 

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Ferrari (Maserati) view on Modification

From another site

Date line 2-7-07 FNA headquarters
To all parts managers,

Re: Use of Non-Genuine Aftermarket Parts


Following an increasing number of vehicle failures and customer complaints concerning the fitting of non-genuine aftermarket components, I wish to bring your urgent attention to some of the possible consequences.

FNA has observed more and more dealers becoming involved with the fitting of non-genuine aftermarket exhausts, different specification non-genuine wheels, Engine ECU "chipping" (i.e. re-programming), seat modifications, steering wheel changes and suspension ride height adjustments to name a few. Each of these has the potential not only to void a customer's warranty, but could also result in the dealer being held liable for possible product related issues.

Examples of such potential problems include loss of airbag due to steering wheel replacement. Engine failure or malfunction, check engine light illumination, damaged catalytic converters, due to engine ECU reprogramming and or the fitting of non genuine aftermarket exhausts. Suspension failure caused by the fitting of different specification non-genuine wheels. Fender damage, uneven tire wear and handling issues caused by changing ride heights. These are just a few examples...the list goes on.

As we have communicated to you previously. these modifications are strictly against Ferrari policy for cars under warranty. I am astounded that a dealer would carry out any of these modificationson any car of any age as the potential loss certainly outweighs the short term gain. The vehicles warranty book clearly states " The limited warranty does not cover misuse, negligence, overloading, or any type of modifications."

The issue of exhaust systems is becoming more common since model year 05 cars have even more stringent emissions requirements and the threshold for setting errors is very low. We have cases showing (e.g. 4 Tubi systems in California last week alone) that with any exhaust modification, an error can be set in the engine management system and a check engine light will be visable on the instrument cluster. The long term effects include, but are not limited to, excessive engine heat, catalyst failure, incorrect air/fule mixture, and possible engine failure.

This practice must stop immediatly. Any dealer fitting any non-genuine parts or accessory on a Ferrari that is under warranty will be held responsible for all consequential repair costs for that car for the remainder of the warranty period and Ferrari will also hold dealer responsible for any other related liabilities, e.g., accidents, personal and property damage, etc.

Sincerly

Adam Rowley
V.P. Technical Services
FNA

John J. Maggio
Director, Parts & Accesories Operations
FNA
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these piggyback chips seem to be a waste of time.. This is basically a glorified version of the $15 chips they sell on eBay for Hondas..
QUOTE]

I wouldn't presume to know enough about this to correct you but it certainly seems to me that the cost of the chip is irrelevant. Isn't it the real cost the development that must be amortized on a very low volume car, the test equipment, the set up, the tuning, the testing and so on. I see nothing wrong in paying for knowledge and process. Otherwise Maserati's shouldn't sell for much more than the sum of their material costs and an oil change at your dealership should be the cost of the oil and filter.

Anyhow, I'm with M! We amateurs can perhaps learn something from a vigorous debate on this between you experts. Let it fly! On a related note I had some work done on my QP by Formula Dynamics. I found them thoughtful, intellingent, informed and passionate about getting the job done right.

Ken
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these piggyback chips seem to be a waste of time.. This is basically a glorified version of the $15 chips they sell on eBay for Hondas..
OK, I'll correct you ;) Seriously though Mark, this is certainly not the case. I understand your position with Maserati and your sort of being the official connection here on the board but Dyno charts don't lie and our customers have been very satisfied. Our products produce power, it's that simple.

Are you saying that you don't believe that Eurotek or FD Chips produce results? Have you ever driven or dyno'd a car with either of our products installed? Or perhaps our customers just spend money for no reason and leave happy? Bottom Line, we work with our customer to make sure they are happy, we give them what they want and what they paid for.

Emissions, gas mileage, good operability in all climates, failsafe against bad gas, ethanol differences, etc... (I've done pre-detonation fuel tests with a highly modified supercharged car running Haltech stand alone, and not all 93 \ 91 octanes are the same. There were a couple brands that knocked sooner and more often than others, even a 93 that was worse than a 91) Ethanol makes a difference because it's 'correct' air to fuel ratio is 9:1 vs gasoline's 14.7:1, and I believe it burns hotter in general.
Fuel is different and that's why we ask customers what they run and we lookup the specs to tune. This would be the same issue if it weren't a piggy back. If detonation does occur, it sets off your CEL anyway. The customer calls in and we back off the timing on their chip. It's never happened, but very doable for us. It's easy with the piggy back because all they have to do is install the bypass plug for a few days while they ship our chip back in for a change ( free of charge ). Note: The factory ECU remains untouched.

We also leave some room as well for these conditions. For our higher octane programs, we actually have tunes for different fuels such as VP, Sunoco and soon F&L. Once you get into these fuels, quite a lot is different and the programs change a bunch.

They adjust the resistance\voltage values of the air temperature sensor, air pressure sensor, O2 sensor, and others to fool the ECU into enriching the fuel mixture to make a few more horsepower.
This is it in a nutshell, except that we also adjust ignition timing which is a bit more complicated. Everything is based off maps of Throttle Position, RPM, Engine Temp and Intake Temp, the change is not a single offset to the factory curves. It's just as complete as the map that BOSCH / Maserati uses inside the factory ECU. This is not a $15 part as you suggested. The Hardware alone costs many hundreds of dollars.

Chips have been around as long as EFI, with mixed results. Older systems could be fooled into making a good amount more power, especially when the engines weren't tuned very well leaving the factories. They are also very capable of making more power on Turbo-charged cars.

These Maserati engines aren't coming off the line at GM with bad tolerances and software to make up for that.. These are highly tuned performance engines built by arguably the best engine builder in the world with software to match.
Agreed, but there is still power to be made and there are very few options for Maserati Customers. So if you want another 25-35 more HP. This is your option. There is another 6-8% left for us to unleash.

Tubi and BMC from our experience does not gain any more than a few HP, even after relearning. Someone please show me a dyno graph with a larger improvement from just these mods. It sounds louder, you may think it's faster.

I don't even recommend Tubi to my customers for any other reason besides the sound. Even then we simply replace the center resonator and mufflers with straight pipes because it sounds very similar and costs only $500 or so with some nice tips.

There are real questions about possible long-term issues with using these chips that could be legitimate warranty questions on many engine-related claims with no more horsepower gains than installing a Tubi and freer flowing air intake, and then driving the hell out of the car for two weeks while the stock ECU re-learns your driving style.
So what are the questions? Again, show us some real data. Chip companies have been doing this for a long time and I have yet to see any legitimate information that proves that any problem ( for a stock car ) was caused by a chip. And even if it was, it's not our chip. I understand that Maserati doesn't want anyone mucking with anything, but in general chips are not a cause of engine problems, if adjusting the fuel and timing a bit caused engine problems then someone made a big mistake designing the engine.

Unless of course you've got some before and after dyno testing with a car that's had its ECU reset and driven hard for a week before getting on the dyno, and then another follow up test after installing the chip.
Our dyno graphs are posted on our website.

I don't want to rain on your parade, as I've got customers that would love to have something like this if it indeed works regardless of the possible warranty issues. I just don't see much room for improvement without drastic modifications to the engine.
No raining on anyone's parade here. I have strong repeat customers that bring me back many of their cars. In fact, we can chip just about anything, sometimes there is no power to be gained, like the BMW M3... pretty much a waste of time. Many times we can produce some real power. 25HP is not a ton of power but it also makes the car accelerate smoother and come on faster. Customers like it.

A Supercharger is the way to go with these cars to make BIG power. We're working on that as well. This modification requires our chip also.
 

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For sure, obviously they can sell a chip for a honda for less because of volume alone. It's also a lot more basic, because most of those chips only modify the air intake temperature value.

"A constant voltage is applied to the heated film or heated wire. This film or wire is positioned in the air stream or in an air flow sampling channel and is heated by the electrical current that the voltage produces. As air flows across it, it cools down. The heated wire or film is a positive temperature coefficient (ptc) resistor. This means that it's resistance drops when it's temperature drops. The drop in resistance allows more current to flow through it in order to maintain the programmed temperature. This current is changed to a frequency or a voltage which is sent to the computer and interpreted as air flow. Adjustments for air temperature and humidity are taken into consideration since they also affect the temperature of the heated wire or film."

What these chips usually do is simply take a given value and change it going to the computer fooling the ECU to run more rich. Basic applications are resistance or voltage only changing, and are a consistent or rising resistance. Some have EPROMS with actual tables stored. Our cars generally have more sensors that go into the overall air:fuel equation, but the end method and result are the same. Some of the chips are sensor only variations, some will also change signals sent to injectors, cam angle advance\retard, rev limiters, and in turbo applications they can often change wastegate settings.

We run a chip in our turbo-diesel tow truck that makes a bit more boost, gives a bit more fuel, changes the timing a bit, and also changes some shift points for the transmission. It made a big difference, but because its the Ford powerstroke diesel with a continually variable aperature turbine and an automatic transmission, there is a lot more variables the chip can control.


I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just don't think you're going to see a big difference on an already highly-tuned naturally aspirated motor. Certainly not big enough to offset possible long-term durability \ reliability \ warranty questions.


If you want to know more about standalone engine management, megasquirt is an open source alternative that I've switched to from using Haltech. The hardware and software are mostly open, so you can see the underlying formulas that make an engine run.
http://www.megasquirt.info/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_Control_Unit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megasquirt

This roughly shows most of the major sensors the ECU uses for EFI tuning


Here is a nice graph of how the gas emissions from the tailpipe change as the mixture goes up or down from stoich (14.7:1 air/fuel ratio)
 

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Performance Specialist
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Discussion Starter #11
From another site

Date line 2-7-07 FNA headquarters
To all parts managers,

Re: Use of Non-Genuine Aftermarket Parts


Following an increasing number of vehicle failures and customer complaints concerning the fitting of non-genuine aftermarket components, I wish to bring your urgent attention to some of the possible consequences.

FNA has observed more and more dealers becoming involved with the fitting of non-genuine aftermarket exhausts, different specification non-genuine wheels, Engine ECU "chipping" (i.e. re-programming), seat modifications, steering wheel changes and suspension ride height adjustments to name a few. Each of these has the potential not only to void a customer's warranty, but could also result in the dealer being held liable for possible product related issues.

Examples of such potential problems include loss of airbag due to steering wheel replacement. Engine failure or malfunction, check engine light illumination, damaged catalytic converters, due to engine ECU reprogramming and or the fitting of non genuine aftermarket exhausts. Suspension failure caused by the fitting of different specification non-genuine wheels. Fender damage, uneven tire wear and handling issues caused by changing ride heights. These are just a few examples...the list goes on.

As we have communicated to you previously. these modifications are strictly against Ferrari policy for cars under warranty. I am astounded that a dealer would carry out any of these modificationson any car of any age as the potential loss certainly outweighs the short term gain. The vehicles warranty book clearly states " The limited warranty does not cover misuse, negligence, overloading, or any type of modifications."

The issue of exhaust systems is becoming more common since model year 05 cars have even more stringent emissions requirements and the threshold for setting errors is very low. We have cases showing (e.g. 4 Tubi systems in California last week alone) that with any exhaust modification, an error can be set in the engine management system and a check engine light will be visable on the instrument cluster. The long term effects include, but are not limited to, excessive engine heat, catalyst failure, incorrect air/fule mixture, and possible engine failure.

This practice must stop immediatly. Any dealer fitting any non-genuine parts or accessory on a Ferrari that is under warranty will be held responsible for all consequential repair costs for that car for the remainder of the warranty period and Ferrari will also hold dealer responsible for any other related liabilities, e.g., accidents, personal and property damage, etc.

Sincerly

Adam Rowley
V.P. Technical Services
FNA

John J. Maggio
Director, Parts & Accesories Operations
FNA
Why are their dealers selling the products? Because their customers want more power and better handling and these products deliver!

Sounds to me like they need our Piggyback ECU to balance out the exhaust issues so that the CEL doesn't get set off by the extra flow! Keep in mind customers may want a chip for something as simple as this.

Factories will continue to complain about issues like this for many reasons. It makes their job more difficult and affects their sales of higher priced models as well. Honestly for $80K right now you can pickup one of our customers Chipped Maserati GranSports that produces 440HP. You're getting very close to Ferrari Specs there and the GS with wheels / springs handles like you wouldn't believe. Many customers start asking themselves, why pay so much more for the Ferrari?

Don't believe that factory's do this??? Case in Point: Everyone knows that the E55 is a rocket, why did it produce less HP from the same motor as the S55 for example? Only because it was detuned from the factory so that it wouldn't outshine the more expensive model in every way. A chip brings this to life right away. The same power can be gained from both motors.
 

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How much timing differences are you making? How much off stoich?

Would you independently guarantee against any engine failure as a result of your chip tuning that the manufacturer warranty would no longer cover? If I had a chip in a gransport that had pre-cat breakup that got sucked back into the engine from running rich, would you cover engine replacement? Why should Maserati or Ferrari warranty a claim for the same reason? Do you think Ferrari is that concerned with a car outshining another? The 599 is faster 0-60 than the Enzo...

Ferrari made a lot of engineering changes to the 4.2 for installation in the 430. It's not like they chipped it to make 480hp. They changed crank shaft, pistons, stroke, intake and exhaust manifolds, etc.. All of that to make another 80hp reliably. You're just not going to make 30-50% of that power without sacrificing something.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I do think that the Maserati can take business away from Ferrari with a higher performance product at a lower price point. If the 430 engine was in the Maser, I believe that many people may buy the Maser over say a 550M.

In regards to the performance difference, It's not that I think this is a huge issue, just that factories have many reasons for doing what they do. I'm not going to pretend to know them all but I've never seen a cat break up from running rich and get sucked back into the engine from running a bit running richer than the factory setting. Richer usually means cooler temperatures anyway. We do not make adjustments that should cause this kind of failure.

Should Ferrari cover it? Maybe, maybe not. Depending on the circumstances. They need to prove the relation and I think in most cases they would. But simply denying a claim on the engine based on a chip is not fair to the customer either.

I do think that more Factories should work with Tuners directly (i.e. Dinan / BMW) so that customers can have authorized performance upgrades.

Customers want this, the mods do work and the factories could be involved.

Certainly the 430 engine is very different than the Maser 4.2 and you can't make up the difference with just a chip. You can get a bit more power though and for many people modifying the car to be faster than their buddies and getting that little extra breakaway from the wheels is worth it.
 

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I've never seen a cat break up from running rich and get sucked back into the engine from running a bit running richer than the factory setting. Richer usually means cooler temperatures anyway. We do not make adjustments that should cause this kind of failure.
Cat breakup isn't necessarily from engine heat, its a result of an overly rich mixture exhausting excessive unburnt fuel into the pre-cat, which are fairly new in the last few years. The unburnt fuel then combusts in the pre-cat (which is what its there for). The problem is that because the engine is now running richer and more unburnt fuel than normal results in more fuel burning in the pre-cat which raises temperature and with those pops we love to hear in the exhaust are happening in the pre-cats they can break up.

This was fairly new to me as well, since I'm not used to engines with pre-cats, but my technician that came from a Ferrari\Maserati\Lamborghini shop said it is quite common with the Gallardos, even left stock.

The problem with breakup relating to exhaust modifications happens when the backpressure drops, there isn't as much vacuum sucking the successive exhaust pulses through and the unburnt fuel will collect in the pre-cat and have larger combustion pops resulting in more damage and possible breakup of the catalytic converter material.

This is a picture of the inside of a pre-cat (not a Maserati engine). The silver surface towards the bottom should show all the way to the top, but in this case the damage caused the pre-cat to disintegrate and catalytic substrate was sucked back into the engine.


This is very similar to what I've heard of the damage that Ferrari's with Tubi's were seeing.

I do think that more Factories should work with Tuners directly (i.e. Dinan / BMW) so that customers can have authorized performance upgrades.
I agree 100%. I have been modifying cars since before I could legally drive them, and these days usually do modifications to pre-EFI cars, or with megasquirt v2 standalone. I think there should be manufacturer involvement with tuners, such as the BMW / DINAN relationship. But even that relationship has had hiccups. Look at the problems related to DINAN upgraded Z8s.

Certainly the 430 engine is very different than the Maser 4.2 and you can't make up the difference with just a chip. You can get a bit more power though and for many people modifying the car to be faster than their buddies and getting that little extra breakaway from the wheels is worth it.
For sure. We are always in a struggle to push the envelope of power and tuning and making the cars our own. All I am saying is that for 80hp they did *a lot* of engineering. I just haven't seen anything that says the power you might pick up from doing a chip is worth the trade-offs, especially if all the development is being done on a car someone is driving around and not something you're installing and running on a bench dyno for 10,000 miles and weather testing and everything else the manufacturer does before they release a car with software. (And then update it periodically)
 

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This is a really useful and interesting thread It's threads like this that really make this board a great service and the best of the Maserati boards.

Mark, Jeff you both deserve our thanks for keeping this as an honest disagreement supported by fair and logical discussion. Although I think we all enjoy the occassional flaming and insulting too, this thread is quite informative and I'm learning a lot. Keep it going.

Ken
 

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The salient point is that with any engine modification, be it exhaust, ECU, intake, you have to ensure you have proper engine management: e.g. AF ratio and EGT under all conditions.

The manufacturer does this when they calibrate the ECU; over the long haul in the aftermarket industry, the vendors that do EXTENSIVE R&D and durability testing are the ones that have the decent reputation.

That isn't to say someone won't or hasn't done this for a Maserati, just that both the cost of R&D is higher (therefore fewer good products) and user base is smaller, so there is less chance to hang back and say "let me pick a product that has been around for 3 years that 2,000 people are using with success".

You also have to take into account local emissions testing, and servicability by the dealer.

I think FNA's memo is heavy handed, but pretty much what you would expect from a manufacturer trying to protect their brand image. (and I see this as more of an issue for dealers to deal with FNA rather than something that impacts owners: federal law is federal law, and the warranty is the warranty - the manufacturer can vary neither).

Glenn
 

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This is a really useful and interesting thread It's threads like this that really make this board a great service and the best of the Maserati boards.

Mark, Jeff you both deserve our thanks for keeping this as an honest disagreement supported by fair and logical discussion. Although I think we all enjoy the occassional flaming and insulting too, this thread is quite informative and I'm learning a lot. Keep it going.

Ken
Thank you. I really don't want him to feel like I am attacking him or anything like that, but I also don't want to see anyone having to foot the bill for an engine replacement on account of 15hp.

(I've seen one legitimate engine replacement warranty claim, and it was over $50k when all was said and done)
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Cat breakup isn't necessarily from engine heat, its a result of an overly rich mixture exhausting excessive unburnt fuel into the pre-cat, which are fairly new in the last few years. The unburnt fuel then combusts in the pre-cat (which is what its there for). The problem is that because the engine is now running richer and more unburnt fuel than normal results in more fuel burning in the pre-cat which raises temperature and with those pops we love to hear in the exhaust are happening in the pre-cats they can break up.
It sounds to me like the question revolves around what is a dangerous mixture for the pre-cats. The cars we've tuned here in Vegas, don't pop very much. We worked on the the cleanout so customers don't get the backfire on decel and wake up the neighbors or feel like a kid with a Camaro.

Our modifications don't affect the backpressure, only the mixture. So, I'm not sure if this would really be a problem. We don't just add more fuel, we add ignition timing which is a counter balance as ignition timing alone will lean your mixture, then we balance the AFR across the board so you have more power / torque everywhere. At some points the mixture is richer than stock, in other points it's leaner than stock. However we don't go outside of certain safe boundries. If the Temperature in the cats rise, the "slow down" light comes on the dash, so we do test for this in basic terms. Of course we also check EGT during tuning as well.

If a car is running an exhaust system (like the Tubi) which would cause the car to run leaner and overheat a bit. We can balance that out as well by richening it back up. The factory ECU does have learning involved but it's deviations are not meant to anticipate certain modifications.

With all this in mind, we will probably be offering a Group Buy fairly soon which would include the Coupe, Spyder and GranSport, as well as any QP Customers who wanted to give it a try. I believe we have everything figured out for this model now.
 

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--- With all this in mind, we will probably be offering a Group Buy fairly soon which would include the Coupe, Spyder and GranSport, as well as any QP Customers who wanted to give it a try.
What what ever happened with the possibility of 360 Ferrari ECU tuning?
 
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