[squid]

I think Maserati is a) the only manufacturer that can benefit from a Ferrari connection without diminishing the Ferrari brand and b) a perfect synergy, from a marketing perspective. Maserati is without question the only brand on earth that could actually lend luster to Ferrari itself. Ferrari will never build large sedans, but it can bring HUGE benefits to the Maserati sedans. The relationship is win-win, whereas a relationship with a lesser brand such as Alfa would be akin to all the others that were forced on Maserati over the years. Maserati in its current state, sadly brings little to such a relationship.

I think Maserati, as stablemate to Ferrari as the "luxury" brand under the Fiat umbrella, is a brilliant position. Maserati is ailing, no question, and has been for decades. For the first time they're given the opportunity of an engineering department fitting the magic of the name and reputation. The MC12 is winning races and that new QP is an absolutely astounding car; unique, capable, and as beautiful as only a Maserati sedan could ever be. Sales are up. The relationship worked quite well for both parties.

I too would love a Ferrari, but can't justify a $250k toy. The Maserati I can drive like a normal car. I've already got 10k on the clock on my car, how many Ferraris do that many miles in their first decade? I would be incredibly sad if the relationship were permanently severed. At the moment I am still in denial of the divorce. Marriage counciling, PLEASE.

 

[bundas]

the two top

maserati/ferrari what magic! just the sound and sight of these two words allow me become young again. i am still living on memory's if the fifties. and after half century i am able to drive a dream! or two. both dreams have been to track day, a must. maserati verified itself as a great road car, with a good amount of fun attached, sound to. ferrari, you guessed it, perfect for both. fellas don't wait until you are too old and infirm. i did, its not as much fun. looking to the next step for both will see great must haves. an alfa? not me!
my choice, a birdcage maserati, what do you think?

 

[JGT]

Eurodino, I did mention the glorious 50ies! However even then Maserati won 2 F1 world championships (with Fangio 1954 & 1957) but Ferrari 4 in that decade.....By the way Lotus won many F1 championships in the 60ies and 70ies, Alfa Romeo the 1st 2 F1 championships ever and Cooper (manufacturer) won 2 F1 championships, 16 F1 races and several rally championships and what happened to them?

Maserati is a great name in the performance car history and I am glad they got new air.....I love their recent cars. Much better value and excitement than an Audi S, BMW M, Jaguar R or MB AMG (and on par with Aston Martin). I just hope Fiat does the right things to keep it that way and a link to Ferrari is not a bad thing at all for a (long) while to come....I am not waiting for a Alfa tuner like AMG or M! And life will get more difficult from 2008 for Maserati when besides the established S/M/AMG germans you also get the porsche panamera and Aston 4 doors competing with their star product the QP.....

So the success of the new Coupe GT and updated/future QP will be extremely important for their survival! I think Maserati should be the every-day users-friendly (space, trunk, 10.000miles +/year etc) sports car competing Porsche 911/Panamera, Aston DB9/V8/4door or even Bentley GT while Ferrari the hard core exotic supercar you take out for a spin occasionally.....

 

[maseratifan]

I had forgotten this little tidbit...whe I insured my CC I remember the insurance company having a hard time finding my car listed, because the VIN kept coming up as a Ferrari.

 

[M!]

Maserati ... also have an agreement with Audi to use their AWD technology possibly in the QP or more likely the Kubang derived SUV. ...
If Luca di M is reading he can send the check to me in Los Altos

He can also tell you that the 'agreement with Audi' has been off for a long time.

 

[maserati of minneapolis]

I wish I could release more information to dispell some of the rumors, because I have heard some news regarding the future, and we are all really excited. A couple of the comments in here haven't even been far off base, although I can't say which ones...

Just keep in mind, Ford's troubles with Jaguar likely started with the S-Type, and I don't think Fiat \ Maserati will make the same mistake.

 

[MVP]

Not at all if I showed you part diagrams of the Ferrari F430 and Maserati 4200, you'd be suprised how many engine related parts are the same. In the current 4200, Ferrari had alot to do with the development so I feel that mentioning this is a strong selling point, it also helps people who are not familiar with the car understand its background.

 

[JGT]

interesting MVP! How close are they? Is it actually true that all moving parts in the motor are different or is the lower Maserati rev. limit more an ECU (software) thing to make it more of a "daily driver" ????? (and step less on Ferrari toes)......If you matimatically rev the 4200 to Ferrari redline you get around 475Hp the extra 15Hp at the F430 then could be intake and exhausts differences....

 

[maseratifan]

love to hear more about the similarities in parts!

 

[JGT]

comparing motors

Ferrai F430 motor vs Maserati 4.2 V8

comparing the 2 motors specs you'll see that the block is the same with the same cylinder spacing and 92mm bore, 4OHC with variable timing, 32 valve, dry sump, combined water/oil unit etc. etc.

However the Ferrari version has a 1mm longer stroke (81mm vs 80mm) resulting in a slightly higher compression ratio 11.3:1 vs 11.1:1 (+1,8%) and slightly bigger displacement (+1,5%) giving the Ferrari some extra power (13Hp?).

So obviously the Ferrari piston connection rods are slightly shorter (=longer stroke - shorter rods also generate more cylinder wear in a same block although not sure if the difference is marginal or not to make Maserati more a "daily driver"???).

What about pistons? rings? Well according to the F430 owner's manual its engine can consume double the amount of motor oil / 1000km compared to the Maserati guidance (manual) so probably at least the piston rings are also different.

Crankshaft? Bearings? Camshafts? Valves? Chains? etc.... no idea.....(MVP?). Official line is that they changed all of these moving parts also to allow higher revving.

Motor software is obviously different and finally Intake and exhaust manifolds are chamged making up for the power difference of the F430 not explained by reving the Maserati to 8.500rpm and compression/stroke/displacement....

So these motors are cousins, sisters or twins with the Maserati one a version to be reved less to spare it more and do more miles/year and maybe using some slighty less critical (=cheaper?) moving parts. Are all the moving parts really different or is besides the pistons and longer stroke mainly just software? Probably a well kept secret....untill some people selling parts or working on these motors open up

 

[MVP]

I used to have a full list of all the differences, I'll see if I can find it again. However the two engines are very similar. Here are a few parts diagrams.

4200 crankcase-http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/9831/4200crankcaseij8.gif
F430 crankcase- http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/1415/f430crankcasevy4.gif

Sorry couldn't attach all of them, dumb 48kb image limit.

When I first purchased my 4200 I was ignorant about it, Trent Santos over at Ferrari/Maserati CF showed me the parts diagram from the 4200 and F430 and went over all the similarities with me, that's one of the things that sold me on the car. And don't quote me on this but if I recall correctly the 6spd uses the Ferrari 456 transmision and the CC uses the 360 transmission or it is based off the 360 transmission and very similair.

In my opinion the similarities are almost as close as Honda and Acura or Nissan and Infiniti.

Sorry I don't have more information as it's a very interesting topic, I'll do some more research on it and post more detailed information.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[JGT]

Thanks MVP!!! I don't know anything about chip tuning (well 10 years ago I had it in my Golf VR6 and enjoyed it) but searching on this board I found out that Eurotek increases the rev limit of the Maserati in some cases upto 8.000rpm, correct? So Eurotek must be sure the motor can handle that! (Here in Europe we use 98 gasoline). I did not find real dyno before and after results though. Anybody has them?

Another question I have besides my QP user's manual, also a English one (US?) and 3 different QP sales folders and they don't seem to agree on where the motor makes the 400Hp!!! Some sources say @7.000rpm and some at 7.250rpm. I know the QP was updated to comply with (o.a. Euro4) emmission levels last year somewhere but thought they only made the gears a bit longer to get there (indeed slightly slower acceleration for the updated version) or did they also change the motor management? At which rpm is top hp and what is the redline?

 

[JGT]

I am a bit puzzled after seeing MVP gifs: isn't ferrari always using flat-plane crankshafts in its V8's??? I tought the one in the diagram is a cross-plane or am I wrong????

(1st picture attached cross-plane and 2nd flat-plane according to my info)

 

[Steeldream]

tis odd - those are cross plane cranks in the gifs whereas the Maser 4.2 is supposed to be a flat plane.

dunno the explanation.

 

[JGT]

from autozine on the F430:

"The 4308cc V8 is an all-new design instead of an evolution of the old V8, whose history can date back to the 348-era. It shares the basic aluminum block with Maserati’s 4.2-litre V8, with 1mm longer stroke accounting for the increased capacity. Like the 360 engine, it runs a flat-plane crankshaft (unlike Maserati's fully-balanced cross-plane crankshaft), sacrifices a little refinement in exchange for lightness, hence higher rev and power. Other reciprocating moving parts are also lightweight items, including forged aluminum pistons and titanium connecting rods. In order to enhance thermal efficiency, the engine runs a 11.3:1 compression, up from the 360 and Maserati’s 11.1:1.

The cylinder head also employs a better variable valve timing system - the outgoing 360 engine employed only a discreet-type VVT at the exhaust valves while the overcrowded intake valves did not have VVT. In contrast, the new V8 employs a continuous-type VVT at both intake and exhaust camshafts like the Maserati V8. This ensure optimized valve timing and larger overlapping to improve output across the whole rev range"

Can somebody confirm this about the crankshaft???? My Mase surely sounds and vibrates at idle like a flatplane one?????

 

[JGT]

More from autozine on the differences....as I expected (titanium) con rods are different but intakes/exhaust moving parts (camshafts, valves etc) seem the same..... Puzzling is the crankshaft though......Maybe comparing cylinder firing order and engine weight is helpfull...:

"Maranello's engineers understand that for a GT like Maserati, torque and smoothness are far more important than as in the Ferrari sports car while outright power is relatively less important. Therefore the Maserati V8 employs a cross-plane crankshaft with full counter-balances instead of the Ferrari's high-revving but vibrating flat-plane crankshaft. Because it does not need to rev into 8000rpm zone like the Ferrari, expensive titanium connecting rods and are replaced with conventional forged steel con-rods"

 

[JGT]

Well more and more websites come up with this:

"Maserati 90 degree V8 engine with crankcase and cylinder heads in aluminum alloy and refined silicon and crankshaft in refined steel, with cranks balanced individually on five main bearings.Timing is by two bench -tested chain-driven cams, four valves per cylinder controlled by hydraulic cups. Dry sump engine lubrication with the pumps and cooling pumps all in a single unit. Ignition and injection systems are integrated Bosch; electronic drive-by-wire accelerator control."

That indicates a cross-plane crankshaft indeed!!!!


EDIT: Disregard that since the official F430 manual also states that its uses a "single piece crankshaft in hardened steel, individually balanced resting on 5 main journals with bustings". All V8's have 5 main bearings anyhow but I thought that only cross-plane got balanced......they got balanced more than flat-plane and that is why they don't rev so well

However more and more sources point to a Maserati cross-plane motor and F430 flat-plane and that would be a big diference.......But it doesn't sound nor feel that way? Fire order of Mase is 1-8-6-2-7-3-4-5 but I can not make a conclusion from that (a specialist?)

 

[M!]

well, looks like someone uses this Ferrari connection to sell his maserati

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/194285590.html
http://www.maseratilife.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10514#post10514

 

[JGT]

no reason to sell the car!!!
Digging into the subject over european long w.e. it is clear that the F430 motor and Maserati V8 are very related but there are differences. People who visited the Ferrari plant do say both are made at the same production line. However they also mentioned seeing Maserati crankshafts and Ferrari ones. The biggest difference is that: Maserati has a balanced cross-plane crank reving less also on the back of steel con rods and other pistons (oil consumption guidance 0,5litre/1000km) while Ferrari is a higher reving flat-plane crank with titanium rods and higher performance pistons (guidance of 1-2litre oil consumption/1000km). However the balance/leightweight rod difference is not big since I think the Mase weights 184kg and F430 183kg. There is also no physical place in the identic crankhouse to use big balances I guess. Finally valve timing mecanisms are the same with sporty in-& exhaust overlap and that is probably why even the balanced Maserati does vibrate more than other balanced V8's like BMW.

Anyway the differences make your Maserati more a daily driver so you don't have to keep it sleeping in the garage!!!! I love mine and use it daily!

Let's see what the next Maserati motor will look like. The Alfa 8C is rumoured to have a flat-plane crank.....

For bankgrounf on crankshafts: http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/smooth4.htm

 

[JGT]

An article I had forgotten about but read again yesterday. Fits very well in this discussion Maserati-Ferrari....Jeremy Clarkson calls the QP the "bastard son" of Ferrari and actally calls it better than a Ferrari.......A better thumps up from clarkson impossible.....

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-1470519,00.html