No, waiting for a failure would be silly so if i wanted a DBW id call FD and buy it. But in this case with a cat failure id go the other way.
'04 4200 Coupe Cat problem - suggestions please!
Hi Everyone........ just run into my first potential problem with my '04 4200GT Coupe CC with only 20,000 miles on it.
I had the check engine light come on. I had it checked out at the Maserati dealer in San Antonio and the fault appears to be that I have an overheating cat on the right hand side. The car seems fine and is drive-able right now, however, It seems quite likely that I will have a problem in the not too distant future. There is no way in hell that I'm going to replace crap with crap (ie stock Maserati parts) so what do you guys recommend? I would like to keep the exhaust similar to stock; maybe just a tad louder as the wife still has to drive it too!
I had the check engine light come on. I had it checked out at the Maserati dealer in San Antonio and the fault appears to be that I have an overheating cat on the right hand side. The car seems fine and is drive-able right now, however, It seems quite likely that I will have a problem in the not too distant future. There is no way in hell that I'm going to replace crap with crap (ie stock Maserati parts) so what do you guys recommend? I would like to keep the exhaust similar to stock; maybe just a tad louder as the wife still has to drive it too!
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bingo!i thought we were talking only about catalytic converter issues. If we are talking about multiple modifications, then that changes the picture.
I think you are missing the point of the fd aftermarket cats. Those are needed to replace contaminated main cats. An ecu remap isn't going to uncontaminate main cats. Moving the o2 sensors has nothing to do with the main cats. It is just a more cost effective method of avoiding a cel. Much cheaper than an ecu remap.
Got it. I agree. If someone has a cat failure, guts their precats, doesn't own a DBWEM, and would purchase one anyway, the EVOMS solution would kill two birds with one stone.No, waiting for a failure would be silly so if i wanted a DBW id call FD and buy it. But in this case with a cat failure id go the other way.
Lets try break it down with a rough idea for the guys in here to give some an idea. How much do you think it would cost to gut cats, install FD cats, and move sensors
Here are my guesses (probably less if labor hours are reasonable).Lets try break it down with a rough idea for the guys in here to give some an idea. How much do you think it would cost to gut cats, install FD cats, and move sensors
Gut pre-cats = $250 labor (cut access hole, remove honeycomb, and weld shut access hole)
Sport cats = $900 with shipping
Main cat install labor = $200 (simple cut and weld)
Relocation of oxygen sensors = $200 (install O2 bungs downstream and lengthen wires)
It has been many years since I went through the ringer with this exact issue. I don't remember exactly what I paid but it was much more than this because I had the car in three different shops due to two different inept service departments. It all ran up lots of money in towing, labor hours, etc. Seems like my car spent the better part of a month being towed from shop to shop.
An important note is that it can be VERY hard to find a shop willing to gut the pre-cats. I ran into multiple shops that didn't want to risk the EPA getting in their business.
If I had to do it again, I still think I would have gone this route. But, that is because I already had a DBWEM. If I didn't and was going to purchase one anyway, I would have gone the EVOMS route. Of course, that bumps the $1,550 operation I estimated above up to $2,600.
Yea i agree. It would be hard to find a shop but doable. The costs you mentioned add up to almost 1500 and i agree with that estimate. Then you have to hope that the sensors are mounted in the rite spot. The 1500 estimate seems equal to goin the way im suggesting. See what i mean. If you have to spend 1500 why not get more out of it
The way you suggest would be $2,600...Yea i agree. It would be hard to find a shop but doable. The costs you mentioned add up to almost 1500 and i agree with that estimate. Then you have to hope that the sensors are mounted in the rite spot. The 1500 estimate seems equal to goin the way im suggesting. See what i mean. If you have to spend 1500 why not get more out of it
Gut pre-cats = $250 labor (cut access hole, remove honeycomb, and weld shut access hole)
Sport cats = $900 with shipping
Main cat install labor = $200 (simple cut and weld)
EVOMS reflash = $1,250 (disable O2 sensor CEL)
Nope, haha,,,the way im saying is gut pre cats 250 or so, and a reflash 1250,, thats all you need to do...total, 1500, 1600,,,.if u gut precats and reflash, u dont need sport cats
the sport cats are to replace contaminated main cats. Under your scenario, if the main cats were not contaminated (not likely), here would be the two options...Nope, haha,,,the way im saying is gut pre cats 250 or so, and a reflash 1250,, thats all you need to do...total, 1500, 1600,,,.if u gut precats and reflash, u dont need sport cats
Gut pre-cats = $250 labor (cut access hole, remove honeycomb, and weld shut access hole)
Relocation of oxygen sensors = $200 (install O2 bungs downstream and lengthen wires)
Total: $450
Gut pre-cats = $250 labor (cut access hole, remove honeycomb, and weld shut access hole)
EVOMS reflash = $1,250 (disable O2 sensor CEL)
Total: $1,500
Regardless of the options taken, the reflash is always going to be about $1,000 more than just relocating the rear O2 sensors.
Got it. Someone like myself with the main cats out would have to either go the way im suggesting, or reinstall their old cats and move sensors, or buy FD cats then move sensors
Yes, if someone wanted to run zero catalytic converters, they would need a remap, O2 sensor spacers, or some other solution like non-fouler O2 sensors. They would also need some ear plugs and some understanding neighborsGot it. Someone like myself with the main cats out would have to either go the way im suggesting, or reinstall their old cats and move sensors, or buy FD cats then move sensors
If you get a remap, you dont need to worry about 02 sensor spacers or non foulers cuz with a remap, they can eliminate the 02 sensor part of it, thus no cats no cell.....Ear plugs i have to agree haha
Yes. I said someone would need one of the three options. Not all of them. The remap is probably the easiest of the three I listed but by far the most expensive. By the end of my catalytic converter saga, I would have gladly paid any amount just to get my car running again. I chime in on these threads in particular because I don't want anyone else to learn everything the hard way.If you get a remap, you dont need to worry about 02 sensor spacers or non foulers cuz with a remap, they can eliminate the 02 sensor part of it, thus no cats no cell.....Ear plugs i have to agree haha
Thanks for all the great info.................. now I just have to find someone who can do the work!
When it comes to gutting the pre-cats, your best bet is to find a small muffler shop and just talk to them in person. Asking them if they are willing to remove catalytic converters over the phone smells like a setup to most shops.Thanks for all the great info.................. now I just have to find someone who can do the work!
You're going to hear a lot of opinions on this matter. We certainly have heard from and worked with many customers with these issues to help them find a solution they liked.
Based on our experience, for what it's worth, I honestly do not recommend running a car without cats. It's just not worth it.
At least run one set of catalytics, clean the air, pass emissions and the car actually runs better because you need at least one set of cats to build enough backpressure or you will lose torque. We've seen it and our customers have seen it. If it were a race car, it would be different because you can hold the car in the higher RPM band. With a street car, you want as much torque as you can get in the standard RPM range for street driving because you're not above 5000 rpm very often.
We're also not a fan of the sound of a catless car. It's not just that it's incredibly loud but it's a less sexy sound also. Some people will disagree with this but I think people will prefer the sound of a car with cats 5 to 1 over a catless car, especially when we're talking about a Maserati.
Last of all, even if you live in an area where you can get away with running catless (due to your local emissions regulations), you are also limiting the group of potential new owners that would purchase your car. We all know that selling the Maserati can be a bit difficult to begin with and narrowing your market further is probaly not a wise choice for most of us.
There are many options that you can move forward with, lots of products out there, let us know if you need help navigating a path and of course, check your local laws before deciding. We'll be sure to help get you the info you need to make the right choice.
With all that said, if you still want to run catless then a reflash will get you from here to there.
Best Regards
Based on our experience, for what it's worth, I honestly do not recommend running a car without cats. It's just not worth it.
At least run one set of catalytics, clean the air, pass emissions and the car actually runs better because you need at least one set of cats to build enough backpressure or you will lose torque. We've seen it and our customers have seen it. If it were a race car, it would be different because you can hold the car in the higher RPM band. With a street car, you want as much torque as you can get in the standard RPM range for street driving because you're not above 5000 rpm very often.
We're also not a fan of the sound of a catless car. It's not just that it's incredibly loud but it's a less sexy sound also. Some people will disagree with this but I think people will prefer the sound of a car with cats 5 to 1 over a catless car, especially when we're talking about a Maserati.
Last of all, even if you live in an area where you can get away with running catless (due to your local emissions regulations), you are also limiting the group of potential new owners that would purchase your car. We all know that selling the Maserati can be a bit difficult to begin with and narrowing your market further is probaly not a wise choice for most of us.
There are many options that you can move forward with, lots of products out there, let us know if you need help navigating a path and of course, check your local laws before deciding. We'll be sure to help get you the info you need to make the right choice.
With all that said, if you still want to run catless then a reflash will get you from here to there.
Best Regards
As usual, great advice from FD.
Once again, some great info. The guys at FD are awesome. I would certainly not want to run cat-less. I still have to drive the car. How much will gutting the pre-cats alter the volume of the car's exhaust? Anyone got any personal experience? I'm also interested in what ESCofVirginia said in the following quote:
I would want to make sure the engine is running properly as well. With a cat over temp problem this early on, I suspect you have very slight misfires causing raw fuel to run through the exhaust and cause the overheating cat.
The usual suspects in that scenario are worn spark plugs, faulty ignition coils and an ailing camshaft timing variator solenoid.
Anything is possible, but it is unusual for a catalyst to completely fail on it's own this early.
The car only has 20K on it and the exhaust has never been bottomed so I'm curious. Wouldn't some of the issues mentioned about also give a CEL?
I would want to make sure the engine is running properly as well. With a cat over temp problem this early on, I suspect you have very slight misfires causing raw fuel to run through the exhaust and cause the overheating cat.
The usual suspects in that scenario are worn spark plugs, faulty ignition coils and an ailing camshaft timing variator solenoid.
Anything is possible, but it is unusual for a catalyst to completely fail on it's own this early.
The car only has 20K on it and the exhaust has never been bottomed so I'm curious. Wouldn't some of the issues mentioned about also give a CEL?
ECS brings up several valid points. However this set of problems occured, I would think there would have to have been some codes and a Check Engine Light at some point.
Removing a single set of cats (with stock mufflers / resonator) is not too bad, it's a bit louder but nothing crazy. Removing both sets is a pretty big difference.
Also, when you start removing cats on a car with a modified exhaust (i.e. louder mufflers) the change is much more noticable (louder) than with the stock mufflers.
Hope this helps!
Best Regards,
Removing a single set of cats (with stock mufflers / resonator) is not too bad, it's a bit louder but nothing crazy. Removing both sets is a pretty big difference.
Also, when you start removing cats on a car with a modified exhaust (i.e. louder mufflers) the change is much more noticable (louder) than with the stock mufflers.
Hope this helps!
Best Regards,
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