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nchhotu

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
2009 GTS F1 does not shift out of 2 gear either manually or auto mode. The F1 fault indicator comes up on dash.
Had Maserati look up code it was a low voltage code. Car drove great after reset then after car is turned off it does the same thing. This time Maserati could not reset code, it became permanent. Its at Maserati to get checked by the F1 expert. Anyone had this issue? Reading some of the threads looks a lot like the cable issue. Clutch life remaining is 65%. 34k Miles.
 
2009 GTS F1 does not shift out of 2 gear either manually or auto mode. The F1 fault indicator comes up on dash.
Had Maserati look up code it was a low voltage code. Car drove great after reset then after car is turned off it does the same thing. This time Maserati could not reset code, it became permanent. Its at Maserati to get checked by the F1 expert. Anyone had this issue? Reading some of the threads looks a lot like the cable issue. Clutch life remaining is 65%. 34k Miles.
Cable issue not sure what cable you are referencing. The Prancing Horse and the Trident have a long history with our F1 systems. It sounds like to me it's either your F1 system not building hydraulic pressure.....ie.....F1 pump, or your F1 Actuator is getting stuck and hung up.

If your F1 pump motor is failing some of them can develop flat spots in the motor like a starter, or they will initially work while cold but after cycling a few times it will over draw and freeze up, at least the old F1 motors would. I've never heard that happening with the newer F1 system that have the bigger more durable F1 pumps like the newer Lambo E gear systems.

I would lean toward an actuator issue. The actuator in that car is the same actuator they have been using since 2001 when they introduced it into the U.S. Maybe a few mods but essentially the same one, actually, even before that in the Ferrari 360. I would have the shop attempt multiple self learns on the car after it's sat for a day. See if they can force shift the car into all of the gears with the computer. I don't know how experienced they are with the F1 system but I've forced shifted cars that stated they were going through all the gears on the computer but the actuator arm was actually hung up and wouldn't clock or select the gear. It would just be going back and forth in selection in the 1-2nd slot. Initially, you will catch it by how it sounds while force shifting. Then you will have to take the actuator off of the side of the gear box and try self learn or shifting with the computer to see if it's actually clocking.

This is at least a start. It would be my best internet guess for not being there to see what the mechanic is seeing.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
Thanks Craig for the detailed response. I will forward your info to the service tech. Your right not all dealers have techs that are experienced enough to trouble shoot F1 problems. I had F1 issues with my 2001 360 so i changed TCU to a 2004 360 stradale and no issues!
The F1 cable i was referring is from other posts about a cable that gets hot and causes similar issues. The cable is close to the exhaust pipe and is a problem on the F1 GTS.
I will let you know what the finding are hopefully Monday.
Thanks
 
Cable issue not sure what cable you are referencing. The Prancing Horse and the Trident have a long history with our F1 systems. It sounds like to me it's either your F1 system not building hydraulic pressure.....ie.....F1 pump, or your F1 Actuator is getting stuck and hung up.

If your F1 pump motor is failing some of them can develop flat spots in the motor like a starter, or they will initially work while cold but after cycling a few times it will over draw and freeze up, at least the old F1 motors would. I've never heard that happening with the newer F1 system that have the bigger more durable F1 pumps like the newer Lambo E gear systems.

I would lean toward an actuator issue. The actuator in that car is the same actuator they have been using since 2001 when they introduced it into the U.S. Maybe a few mods but essentially the same one, actually, even before that in the Ferrari 360. I would have the shop attempt multiple self learns on the car after it's sat for a day. See if they can force shift the car into all of the gears with the computer. I don't know how experienced they are with the F1 system but I've forced shifted cars that stated they were going through all the gears on the computer but the actuator arm was actually hung up and wouldn't clock or select the gear. It would just be going back and forth in selection in the 1-2nd slot. Initially, you will catch it by how it sounds while force shifting. Then you will have to take the actuator off of the side of the gear box and try self learn or shifting with the computer to see if it's actually clocking.

This is at least a start. It would be my best internet guess for not being there to see what the mechanic is seeing.
Hey Craig, it kinda seems like I'm experiencing quite the similar situation...PM sent.
 
Thanks Craig for the detailed response. I will forward your info to the service tech. Your right not all dealers have techs that are experienced enough to trouble shoot F1 problems. I had F1 issues with my 2001 360 so i changed TCU to a 2004 360 stradale and no issues!
The F1 cable i was referring is from other posts about a cable that gets hot and causes similar issues. The cable is close to the exhaust pipe and is a problem on the F1 GTS.
I will let you know what the finding are hopefully Monday.
Thanks
Okay, I understand about the cable, but I was thinking your car does it hot or cold though correct? They started using the TCU modules from the Masers because of memory to flash the Stradale maps to as well. Easier/less expensive out of a Maser than a Ferrari..... I can't remember if it was the 231s or Three hundred series TCUs now but I do know they were really happy with the results of the Stradale maps.

See it you can get the gear box codes from the techs as well. It will go a long way in pin pointing the issue in the GTS
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
Craig, Yes it does not shift into 3rd or higher regardless of car temp. It worked fine after one reset then started doing the same thing after car was turned off and started. Hopefully Monday i can a diagnosis. One other thing which might be related is the car battery was dead for a while then replaced. The IM (Emissions Monitors) are not yet all up so car has to go through a few cold starts to get them all up and running for CA smog. Possibly, the dead battery could have cleared F1 memory?
 
Craig, Yes it does not shift into 3rd or higher regardless of car temp. It worked fine after one reset then started doing the same thing after car was turned off and started. Hopefully Monday i can a diagnosis. One other thing which might be related is the car battery was dead for a while then replaced. The IM (Emissions Monitors) are not yet all up so car has to go through a few cold starts to get them all up and running for CA smog. Possibly, the dead battery could have cleared F1 memory?
Sounds like it's in limp mode. Limp mode will allow shift to 1-2 but none of the higher gears in order to get it to the workshop. But I want to make sure I understand the problem again now because I was thinking you were stating it would not shift OUT of 2nd gear whatsoever. Not that you could shift 1-2 and it wouldn't shift to any higher gears above that. Could you clarify? As odd as it sounds it does make a difference.
 
Okay, you can definitely rule out the F1 pump, or a pressure issue. If you can continuously shift into and out of 1-2 gear at will, the system has plenty of pressure which means the F1 pump is doing it's job. Are you able to go into reverse at all? Additionally, does the gear indicator flash and does it beep when you attempt to shift into any other gear? There's a few reasons that the car will go into limp mode, my Spyder did it initially when the Actuator went.

I really need some data to be able to help. It would help if you could include the gear box codes, whether the car completes self learn successfully, and I'm not sure if they would give you them but the engagement and selection parameters. If I had access to the engagement selection parameters it would tell me everything about what the Actuator is doing when it's attempting to shift. It would actually be more advantageous if they gave you the values BEFORE putting the car into self learn, and then again afterwards. Once you put the car in self learn it erases the values of what the actuator was actually doing before you were having issues, and only gives you the parameters of what it's doing now. If that's the only parameters you have it's fine, I would just like to tract the Actuators progression before you were having the issues you are having now. It would help rule out the Actuator altogether if that's not the issue. In this case you definitely want it not to be the issue.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
Craig, I will ask them for codes tomorrow. There was no beeping just the F1 light was on and car would not shift beyond 2nd gear. Clutch engagement was fine no slipping etc. The code the service dept got was a F1 voltage error code. When they reset it the first time i could go into all gears both manually and Auto no problems. They did not see any other codes in the system. After i turned off the car for gas fill up and started her up the F1 light came back on and shift was limited to 1 and 2 gear. Not sure on reverse as i did not use it. When i tried shifting to 3rd or higher gears it did not respond or give me any beeps etc. I took car back and they tried to reset the code but this time it would not reset the voltage code. They said code was a hard code now. They did check the battery for charge and it was good but also said the battery installed by previous owner was a 780 and GT-S needs a 830 rated battery. Hopefully its a quick cheap fix...just being optimistic.
 
Craig, I will ask them for codes tomorrow. There was no beeping just the F1 light was on and car would not shift beyond 2nd gear. Clutch engagement was fine no slipping etc. The code the service dept got was a F1 voltage error code. When they reset it the first time i could go into all gears both manually and Auto no problems. They did not see any other codes in the system. After i turned off the car for gas fill up and started her up the F1 light came back on and shift was limited to 1 and 2 gear. Not sure on reverse as i did not use it. When i tried shifting to 3rd or higher gears it did not respond or give me any beeps etc. I took car back and they tried to reset the code but this time it would not reset the voltage code. They said code was a hard code now. They did check the battery for charge and it was good but also said the battery installed by previous owner was a 780 and GT-S needs a 830 rated battery. Hopefully its a quick cheap fix...just being optimistic.
There are a few things I can think of in the F1 system that a voltage drop could be detrimental to function. Also see if they would be willing to provide the information I was referencing above if you think they would be open to it. It might help if they knew I wasn't trying to hijack their repair job but merely help in determining what the issue actually is.

Here's a picture of the entire F1 system in your car btw, obviously minus the clutch and bell housing. This what controls the clutches operation. In the photo, is the actuator(left), F1 pump (Tuna can on the right), Accumulator (black long cylinder in the middle), and the solenoid valve body (to the right of the Tuna can with the small metal tubes, that controls the pressure going to the Actuator, and bell housing), I'm sure you recognize the F1 reservoir above the actuator that's black in color with the lid. Posted more for your amusement than anything. You won't be able to see all of this on your gear box unless they drop it.....we are hoping that doesn't happen.

Image

 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
I was reading up on the ferrari site guy had identical issue on his 430. It turned out to be Bad gearbox sensor that needed to be replaced... $859 out the door..They first suspected clutch position sensor.
 
I was reading up on the ferrari site guy had identical issue on his 430. It turned out to be Bad gearbox sensor that needed to be replaced... $859 out the door..They first suspected clutch position sensor.
To be honest I'm struggling to figure out what gear box sensor you are specifically addressing. I can see the CPS giving the car issues, but the code they retrieved would of hinted to that. The engagement/selection potientiometers are on the Actuator, those also could cause an issue, but also comes with it's own codes. (I originally had Pot codes before we learned it was an Actuator issue). Can you link the thread you were reading here. I might be able to interpret what issue they had.
 
To be honest I'm struggling to figure out what gear box sensor you are specifically addressing. I can see the CPS giving the car issues, but the code they retrieved would of hinted to that. The engagement/selection potientiometers are on the Actuator, those also could cause an issue, but also comes with it's own codes. (I originally had Pot codes before we learned it was an Actuator issue). Can you link the thread you were reading here. I might be able to interpret what issue they had.
Are there any definitive 'tell-tale signs' to be aware of, that would allude to a faulty Actuator?
 

@Theronh357 there are but to be honest you would need a computer to help you diagnosis it as the definitive problem. The only way I can think of for you to positively identify the Actuator as the culprit without a computer is to take the Actuator from the side of the gearbox, and have someone shift the car while you are examining it to make sure it selects/clocks correctly and engages the gear you are switching into.
@nchhotu As to the thread you posted this is funny because this is exactly what I was saying that the two members are going back in forth on. I think they are discussing the Clutch Position Sensor also known as the F1 position sensor. Without getting into whether it can be removed in a F car or not without splitting the bell housing. I can tell you in order to change an F1 sensor in these cars you do need to split them. To be honest I'm still not clear on what sensor they changed in that thread because the OP never specifically stated what they did or posted a part number. But a faulty F1 sensor will definitely cause the issue he spoke of, and if that's it, it will not be $900 to replace.
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
Ok so received call from MAS service stated fault code 1782. Upon inspection they said code was do to having a 24.5 reading (closed clutch Position). They said the new clutches are around 90-95. On the GTS if it gets to this point it triggers the fault code goes into limp mode.
I'm having my car transported back to me tomorrow as i have a few exotic specialist here in Sacramento area that can give me a second opinion and if it is a clutch replacement they can get me a better price than the MAS dealer. The saga continues!
 
Ok so received call from MAS service stated fault code 1782. Upon inspection they said code was do to having a 24.5 reading (closed clutch Position). They said the new clutches are around 90-95. On the GTS if it gets to this point it triggers the fault code goes into limp mode.
I'm having my car transported back to me tomorrow as i have a few exotic specialist here in Sacramento area that can give me a second opinion and if it is a clutch replacement they can get me a better price than the MAS dealer. The saga continues!
Okay thank you for the update. Unfortunately, I looked through the 62 pages of codes and didn't find P1782 for the gear box. I have the codes for the F430 which is basically the same for the F360, Coupes/Spyders, and GranSports. The codes go as high as 1790 but 1782 isn't specifically listed for the gear box. It might be a code they added specifically for the GTS F1 but I'm kind of doubtful.

So I am assuming they are talking about the clutch parameters for open/closed position. That data is sent by the F1 position sensor to the TCU or NCR of the car. I guess where I'm confused at is that you stated your clutch wear read out was only 35% worn or 65% remaining at 34K miles. Do you know if the clutch was ever changed out in the car?

Malfunctioning F1 position sensors aren't unheard of, actually quite the opposite. But with the Malfunctioning F1 sensor, and the closed clutch position of 24.5 you wouldn't have a read out of only 35% worn. At least that is my assumption because the data the algorithm uses is based on the parameter stored in the NCR and that's based off of what is sent to it from the F1 position sensor.

I'm thinking maybe the F1 Position sensor is shorting out and sending correct data sometimes and faulty data at others. When they retrieved the clutch wear data it must of been when they reset the car, and the sensor at that time was temporarily working. As the problem was intermittent, the F1 sensor acted up again putting the car back into limp mode. F1 sensors are kind of like Crank Position sensors. They can be affected by heat/movement when they start to go bad. Again this is my assumption.

To put your car into perspective, I have 28K on my GranSport, I'm at almost 100% clutch wear now. I do have to replace it this winter. So it's not unheard of to be replacing a clutch on an F1 car with your mileage. I just was wondering whether it had been replaced already with your clutch wear, and maybe someone didn't replace the F1 sensor when they did the clutch job in order to save $400-500 in the process.

Maybe I should also add there have been members who bought a brand new F1 position sensor and when they put it in, it needed to be replace out of the box. Few and far between but it does happen.
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
The clutch wear or snap range was given by another Maserati dealer. This dealer said clutch was worn so its hard to tell whats going on. Hopefully My tech here in Sacramento will figure it out. I will report back with details. My GTS should be here Thursday morning. If it is a clutch what do you think is a reasonable repair cost?
 
The clutch wear or snap range was given by another Maserati dealer. This dealer said clutch was worn so its hard to tell whats going on. Hopefully My tech here in Sacramento will figure it out. I will report back with details. My GTS should be here Thursday morning. If it is a clutch what do you think is a reasonable repair cost?
To be honest reasonable I think is a relative term. I can tell you total cost for all parts involved will be around $3000 give or take depending on what distributor the parts come from. Labor I think is around 20 book hours. That's not actual hours. It really depends on the mechanic involved. Some guys will get under a car and go non-stop because they feel comfortable, others will take their time. You could end up paying anywhere between $5000-7500 for the complete repair depending on the shop/mechanic involved. If your mechanic is getting crazy prices on parts PM me and I will give you my best place for the parts in the UK it's who I use. I do actually have one other Dealership in CA that I use that's been good to me I can try and contact if you are in a bind.
 
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