ZF or F1 transmission in GranTurismo? - Page 3 - Maserati Forum
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post #31 of 59 Old 04-07-2019, 03:41 PM
 
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I absolutely love the GTS for what it is ; a spectacularly beautiful, luxurious , solid, comfortable, magnificent sounding exhaust note and a perfectly fast enough TOURING automobile, arguably unmatched in its class ...with the exception of the DB 11 . ( not using just speed as a criteria otherwise a few other cars may be in there, but they’re all ugly , IMO , or others are just 2+ 2 ..two baby seats in the back ) But, as fantastic as this car is, by no stretch of the imagination can it be called a sports car. IMO you can’t even really call it a “sporty“ car. As pointed in prior posts it’s a very heavy car, and while that has its benefits , the handling / cornering is barely mediocre, and a F1 transmission in it may give you the placebo effect of driving a sports car, but that’s about all. BlackMasi brought up the HP comparison, and whilst 460 HP and 380 torque of the GTS is ostensibly impressive, more importantly is the power to weight ratio. Our car is about 10:1 . The 430 Scuderia , the 599, etc are ( I think ) around 6:1 or 7:1 . That’s a huge difference . Some McLarens are < 4:1. Those are sports cars ! So IMHO, the ZF transmission is perfect for what our car is meant to be, and it can accommodate just about every driving style, and what the car is capable of .. an F1 is really misplaced in the GTS, and the incremental difference in shifting fun it may offer is really inconsequential vs. the ZF’s paddle shift which already gives you probably 90 % of the effect you want . That’s alsmost like having a stick shift in a Bentley ..what would you get out of that ? <img src="https://www.maseratilife.com/forums/images/MaseratiLife_2014/smilies/tango_face_plain.png" border="0" alt="" title="Serious" class="inlineimg" />
Eh, the cars you listed are firmly in "supercar" territory, and that McLaren is a hypercar. I realize there are old, objective, parameters which a car must meet in order to be considered, but from a power to weight ratio standpoint, consider this... the 90's era Miatas are knocking on the door of 20:1 power to weight ratio.

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post #32 of 59 Old 04-08-2019, 03:11 AM

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Eh, the cars you listed are firmly in "supercar" territory, and that McLaren is a hypercar. I realize there are old, objective, parameters which a car must meet in order to be considered, but from a power to weight ratio standpoint, consider this... the 90's era Miatas are knocking on the door of 20:1 power to weight ratio.
How do we measure "power-to-weight ratio"... 20:1 means what? The hp is 1/20 of the weight in lbs? I would think that "power-to-weight" would be 1:20 if that's the case. What's the power-to-weight ratio of a 1965 MG? Definitely a sports car.

Although since we're talking terminology here, some folks I've run into adamantly refuse to call their car a "sports car", correcting me by saying "it's a roadster!"

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post #33 of 59 Old 04-08-2019, 03:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jlobo941 View Post
Eh, the cars you listed are firmly in "supercar" territory, and that McLaren is a hypercar. I realize there are old, objective, parameters which a car must meet in order to be considered, but from a power to weight ratio standpoint, consider this... the 90's era Miatas are knocking on the door of 20:1 power to weight ratio.
How do we measure "power-to-weight ratio"... 20:1 means what? The hp is 1/20 of the weight in lbs? I would think that "power-to-weight" would be 1:20 if that's the case. What's the power-to-weight ratio of a 1965 MG? Definitely a sports car.

Although since we're talking terminology here, some folks I've run into adamantly refuse to call their car a "sports car", correcting me by saying "it's a roadster!"
Not quite sure how it's actually stated, but I was just correlating my response to the statement which I quoted.

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post #34 of 59 Old 04-08-2019, 03:30 AM

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Yeah pretty weird that terminology utilized is “ power to weight “ , but the ratio referenced is the reverse of that .. never undrestood why.
I also heard the it’s a roadster not a sports car “ correction “ from a few folks.. and heaven forbid you should refer to their car as a “ convertible “ , those could be fighting words , and calling it a roadster is the only way to calm them down .
MG - absolutely a sports car ! In fact, it has always been considered to be the classic, purest definition of what a sports car is, and probably the first car that rolls off the tongue of automotive fanatics when you ask them to give you examples of sports cars .
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post #35 of 59 Old 04-08-2019, 04:56 AM

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Yeah pretty weird that terminology utilized is “ power to weight “ , but the ratio referenced is the reverse of that .. never undrestood why.
I also heard the it’s a roadster not a sports car “ correction “ from a few folks.. and heaven forbid you should refer to their car as a “ convertible “ , those could be fighting words , and calling it a roadster is the only way to calm them down .
MG - absolutely a sports car ! In fact, it has always been considered to be the classic, purest definition of what a sports car is, and probably the first car that rolls off the tongue of automotive fanatics when you ask them to give you examples of sports cars .
It's been my privilege to take a few rides in old MGs when I was a kid! My brother had an MG Midget when I was about 11... he took me for a ride one day and we ran out of gas... kind of silly. I also took a ride in a classic MG B owned by a friend in the late 1980s. You could still see quite a few of those cars in the 1980s... now they are rare as platinum, I honestly don't think I've ever seen one in Fresno in 10 years.

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post #36 of 59 Old 04-08-2019, 06:14 AM

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A friend of mine in SoCal used to build track cars out of MGs, I think he said he converted about 25 to 30 of those before he sold the business and moved on to other things ..like designing super chargers for Porsches . But he indicated the MGs were so good at racing even in stock form, that upgrading them into race cars didn’t require a monumental effort . He loved those MGs and maintains to this day they may still be the best and most inspiring sports car. Anyway, I’ve gone way of track here ( no pun intended ) , now returning back to the F1 vs. ZF topic ...
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post #37 of 59 Old 04-11-2019, 07:42 AM

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IMO the best available video on YouTube about the Granturismo, this gentleman brings the purpose of this car perfectly to the point. All that he has said is still valid today.

Regarding the ZF-Gearbox; listen from 5'15". Nothing to add from my side.

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post #38 of 59 Old 04-11-2019, 11:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BlackMasi View Post
IMO the best available video on YouTube about the Granturismo, this gentleman brings the purpose of this car perfectly to the point. All that he has said is still valid today.

Regarding the ZF-Gearbox; listen from 5'15". Nothing to add from my side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9wvP3p56vc

Yeah I have seen this many times. Great accurate review.
Love the "justification" comment.....so true.



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post #39 of 59 Old 04-23-2019, 06:46 AM
 
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This is what can happen when someone who doesn't know how to drive stick drives an automated-manual (the Aventador's gearbox is the same kind of tech as the Ferrari F1/Maserati Cambiocorsa):


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post #40 of 59 Old 04-24-2019, 05:08 AM

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I honestly don't understand what these people are doing to "burn the clutch out" in heavy traffic. I live in California and daily-drive my car to work, and sadly it sees heavy traffic most of the time. I have no problem with my clutch in this circumstance. Not to say it will last that long as I've already used 33% of a new clutch in 10,000 miles, but still, it is basically fine. As my shop owner advised, "keep it fully engaged or disengaged, not slipping if at all possible." I drove a Porsche 5-speed for many years so I fully understand what this means and it is pretty easy to do this. Sometimes in a traffic jam, people behind me wonder why I am not inching forward and just sit there stopped for a while but too bad for them, we will all get there eventually! I know I have to go 10 miles per hour minimum or I don't move. But seriously how far did this poor Aventador go to burn out the clutch from 72%? Only 100 miles? You would have to seriously try to accomplish this feat. I would hate to see that melted flywheel.

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post #41 of 59 Old 04-30-2019, 10:40 AM
 
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I have driven both on the road and on the race track and would never consider or recommend the ZF automatic! Two different cars entirely!


1) The F1 has more nimble handling characteristics - due to more favorable weigh distribution.
2) The F1 is leaps and bounds more engaging and provides a more visceral driving experience.
3) The F1 is faster (from a standing start to xx km/h and also as far as gear shifts are concerned - less than 100 ms!).
4) The F1 is more emotional due to better sound signature -especially at low speeds and downshifts- as a result of different ignition timing.


And last but not least, from personal experience my clutch lasted 100.000 Km! Granting clutch change costs 4 - 5 K it is definitely worth the 5 cents / Km investment! If you plan to sell the car before driving that much mileage on it you will have zero clutch maintenance costs.


I have to say, the F1 clutch is indeed misunderstood by most and is certainly the best clutch for the car beyond doubt. Cannot agree with comments saying it is overkill for the car because it DOES make a HUGE difference to the car experience BOTH on the road and on the track! It literally transforms the car. I feel the ZF box is misplaced on it.


I think most people underrate the F1 because they test drive it in AUTO NORMAL mode. It is meant to be driven in MANUAL SPORT mode all the time to really see the benefits.
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post #42 of 59 Old 05-02-2019, 03:44 AM
 
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Agree with everything Peterson said. Although I've never driven an automatic Granturismo, I've driven other sporty GT cars (Jaguar XFR with the same ZF 6-speed, BMW 840i with ZF 8-speed etc). None of them provide the kind of engagement and visceral experience as the Granturismo and to me, a huge part of that comes from the F1 gearbox (including the excellent weight distribution and the crackles and pops on downshifts and throttle liftoff etc).
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post #43 of 59 Old 05-02-2019, 06:17 AM

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Weight distribution: electro-actuated gearbox (MC Shift) 43% front; 57% rear
Weight distribution: automatic gearbox (ZF): 48% front; 52% rear

Decide for themselves which values are considered more balanced.
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post #44 of 59 Old 05-02-2019, 01:25 PM
 
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The F1 transmission was phased out in Quattroportes and Gran Turismo (base) by 2009, Gran Turismo S and Sport by 2012 and around 2016 in Gran Turismo MC Stradale. All models switched to the ZF automatic with or without paddle shifters.
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post #45 of 59 Old 05-02-2019, 01:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BlackMasi View Post
Weight distribution: electro-actuated gearbox (MC Shift) 43% front; 57% rear
Weight distribution: automatic gearbox (ZF): 48% front; 52% rear

Decide for themselves which values are considered more balanced.

Haven driven BOTH on track and Back-to-Back (First ZF then MC Shift) the MC Shift is the better handling car by a mile!


Haven driven BOTH on the road (high speed run on Autobahn and on twisty roads) the MC Shift is the better handling car (ZF tends to understeer).
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