ZF or F1 transmission in GranTurismo? - Page 2 - Maserati Forum
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post #16 of 59 Old 04-03-2019, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SeanFulop View Post
It's no longer used in the North American cars... but it was used far into the current decade in the worldwide market for Granturismos. Not sure if or when it was ever phased out.
Not sure it's *currently* available, but it's certainly far more common over here

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post #17 of 59 Old 04-03-2019, 08:20 PM

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Not sure it's *currently* available, but it's certainly far more common over here

C
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post #18 of 59 Old 04-05-2019, 01:03 AM
 
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I feel the F1 transmission in the Granturismo with its slow switching times as misplaced and annoying. A bad gearbox in the wrong car. The Granturismo is a heavy car, at the end of the day a real "Granturismo", the ZF transmission fits much better to the character of this car. There are good reasons why the F1 gearbox is no longer used.
You indicate that the F1 trans has slow gear-shifts... and I suppose that is true... when operated in Normal and when not having your throttle down and the revs high - 'cuz in order for the shifts to be fast it has to be in Sport, throttle down, and revs high. As I said, I think you are right re the slow gearchanges when not driven aggressively.

I guess a good fix for this, though... and probably a must-have - is Formula Dynamics Drive By Wire mod. Drivability is no doubt much improved, and speeds-of-shifts are improved. Just saying, though, when the 'box is cold, mebe we DO want slow shift speeds to be easier on the (albeit stout) synchro's...?

You know, there is one side of me that says.... why did Maserati bother with a robotized manual, when, in fact it would be easier to drive if it were a simple manual 'box. I suppose part of it is that "floppy paddles" were- and to some extent still are de rigueur, flavour of the day. Also, even folks who don't know how to drive a manual - could drive it. But folks who do not understand and probably DRIVE a manual could never be happy with an F1 trans. Definitely rough...

In general, I think the ZF automatic probably is a better fit with the GT... but OTOH it certainly would be cool to have a plain-jane 6MT GT. You could then learn to drive it well, easier, than the learning effort (and duration) it takes to learn the F1 trans... And then the driver, directly by lever action, clutch action, could control shift durations, smoothness, etc...

YMMV. Interested in hearing Others' opinions on this matter.
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post #19 of 59 Old 04-05-2019, 03:15 AM

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I love the Duoselect transmission. It shifts three times faster than I could in a manual, and also I am not interested in operating a clutch pedal anymore. I had a Porsche 944 5-speed for 12 years as my daily driver, I don't want to row gears and use the clutch pedal in city traffic anymore. I also love the perfect launch control it does no matter how much gas you give, and it gets really fun when you turn off MSP because then there is no traction control.

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post #20 of 59 Old 04-05-2019, 04:30 AM
 
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Sean, do you always drive in Sport Manual?

If you shift gear at lower rpm's and throttle openings, is it still pretty slow shifting... in Sport Manual?
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post #21 of 59 Old 04-05-2019, 05:46 AM
 
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The F1 gearbox is awesome when driven as intended (manual, sport, aggressive). In order to get the fastest shift mode you need to be at >85% throttle and above 5500rpm, then you get the 100ms shifts. FYI the Duoselect upshift time is 250-300ms, almost 3X slower.


The F1 gearbox is identical to the one in the Ferrari 599 GTB and at the time of release was the fastest shifting road car gearbox in the world. You can read about it here https://auto.ferrari.com/en_EN/sport...9-gtb-fiorano/


That said, under normal (slow) driving in Automatic mode it sucks terribly, you and your passenger's head will bop back and forth with each shift.
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post #22 of 59 Old 04-05-2019, 07:22 AM
 
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It seems to me that regardless of what kind of car you are driving, you will certainly not be driving like Joe-Racer THAT much of the time... and so, unless you can master the DuoSelect or the CambioCorsa or the F1 (by way of throttle let-off-relative to paddle-pull / throttle resumption timing and roll-on versus quick, sharp rtn action)... and you put up with the delay in acceleration associated with this slow-shifting... well, it could be vexing. When I drive my 6MT and I am the only person in the car, well, I anticipate my shifts, I control just how fast the shift is accomplished... and my head does not bob 'cause I can well-anticipate the let-off in acc. and the resumption in acc. Not so with a passenger... but I can manipulate throttle, clutch, shifter, so it is at least smooth. When it comes to a roboticized manual like the aforementioned Magnetti Marelli / Graziano transaxles - you need to anticipate what the automated clutch actuation will be, what the shift actuator will do, and what the electronic throttle will do (notwithstanding your being able to actuate the throttle yourself). When you learn, under varying conditions, how the system will behave, you can compensate with your backing off and re-introducing throttle to work with the automated functions... and all will be fairly smooth... assuming you are good with your muscle-learning... and assuming you are a particularly coordinated individual. Lots of ifs. Hard to do, I would say. But it CAN be done.

Much simpler for a human being to operate the clutch and gearstick...and so I still maintain that these automated-manual 'boxes are harder to learn than a regular M/T.

Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 04-05-2019 at 07:43 AM.
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post #23 of 59 Old 04-05-2019, 07:48 AM
 
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I really don't know why some of you have so much to say about the F1 transmission in GT. I have it, and it is really great for me. OK it is really slow when not in sport mode, but I drive 98% of time in sport mode, even when I'm not driving agressivly, because of sound and shifting is really good. I have tried also the car with ZF when buying, but the F1 is really much more involving. OK, for mainly city driving ZF would be better choice, but GT is not menat to be city driven most of the time. It becomes alive on an open roads.
I have also tried some double clutch boxes, like Porsche PDK, Nissan GTR, but the F1 from GTS is much more involving when shifting. The double clutch boxes are great, but for me they don't give you the sporty feeling which you have with F1 on sport mode. Manual would be also good choice in GTS, but I'm not sure it would be better than F1. And I drive my GTS, than an Audi automatic and a manual box all the time, so I know how to drive manual box.
And for doing with throttle - it is in user manual, that you should not lift off when changing, and for me this is the best strategy. Changing is the best when you just do nothing with throttle when changing, because the computer knows exactly what to do, as the parameters are not changing during shifting. Maybe just at really low speeds you can lift off a little bit.
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post #24 of 59 Old 04-05-2019, 03:00 PM
 
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If you wanted to up-change at 2500 rpm and light throttle (but in Sport mode) would it benefit you from a smoothness perspective to lift throttle a bit when changing gear?
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post #25 of 59 Old 04-05-2019, 05:43 PM
 
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On a modern car you don't really need to lift the throttle to help shifting...Auto or F1....The engine ECM is in communication with the transmission module..The ECM gets a request shift command from the TCM then the engine module retards the ignition timing briefly to reduce engine output for a smoother shift...Jason

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post #26 of 59 Old 04-06-2019, 07:09 AM

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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT View Post
You indicate that the F1 trans has slow gear-shifts... and I suppose that is true... when operated in Normal and when not having your throttle down and the revs high - 'cuz in order for the shifts to be fast it has to be in Sport, throttle down, and revs high. As I said, I think you are right re the slow gearchanges when not driven aggressively.

I guess a good fix for this, though... and probably a must-have - is Formula Dynamics Drive By Wire mod. Drivability is no doubt much improved, and speeds-of-shifts are improved. Just saying, though, when the 'box is cold, mebe we DO want slow shift speeds to be easier on the (albeit stout) synchro's...?

You know, there is one side of me that says.... why did Maserati bother with a robotized manual, when, in fact it would be easier to drive if it were a simple manual 'box. I suppose part of it is that "floppy paddles" were- and to some extent still are de rigueur, flavour of the day. Also, even folks who don't know how to drive a manual - could drive it. But folks who do not understand and probably DRIVE a manual could never be happy with an F1 trans. Definitely rough...

In general, I think the ZF automatic probably is a better fit with the GT... but OTOH it certainly would be cool to have a plain-jane 6MT GT. You could then learn to drive it well, easier, than the learning effort (and duration) it takes to learn the F1 trans... And then the driver, directly by lever action, clutch action, could control shift durations, smoothness, etc...

YMMV. Interested in hearing Others' opinions on this matter.
I like the F1 gearbox exactly in one car, and this is in my Scuderia. The F1-Superfast-II configuration with its rough and brutal switching (60ms shift times in race mode) fits perfect in this car. You can discuss the F1 in the 599. After all, this car still has a sporting claim with its 620 hp. But in a Granturismo this gearbox is out of place. As I said, the Granturismo is heavy and has "only" 460hp, this car follows another purpose, it is not a and will never be a "racing car". The F1 gearbox is just as superfluous as the carbon hood of the MC variant, these things do not make the Granturismo faster or more sporty.

Last edited by BlackMasi; 04-06-2019 at 11:40 AM.
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post #27 of 59 Old 04-07-2019, 01:30 AM

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I absolutely love the GTS for what it is ; a spectacularly beautiful, luxurious , solid, comfortable, magnificent sounding exhaust note and a perfectly fast enough TOURING automobile, arguably unmatched in its class ...with the exception of the DB 11 . ( not using just speed as a criteria otherwise a few other cars may be in there, but they’re all ugly , IMO , or others are just 2+ 2 ..two baby seats in the back ) But, as fantastic as this car is, by no stretch of the imagination can it be called a sports car. IMO you can’t even really call it a “sporty“ car. As pointed in prior posts it’s a very heavy car, and while that has its benefits , the handling / cornering is barely mediocre, and a F1 transmission in it may give you the placebo effect of driving a sports car, but that’s about all. BlackMasi brought up the HP comparison, and whilst 460 HP and 380 torque of the GTS is ostensibly impressive, more importantly is the power to weight ratio. Our car is about 10:1 . The 430 Scuderia , the 599, etc are ( I think ) around 6:1 or 7:1 . That’s a huge difference . Some McLarens are < 4:1. Those are sports cars ! So IMHO, the ZF transmission is perfect for what our car is meant to be, and it can accommodate just about every driving style, and what the car is capable of .. an F1 is really misplaced in the GTS, and the incremental difference in shifting fun it may offer is really inconsequential vs. the ZF’s paddle shift which already gives you probably 90 % of the effect you want . That’s alsmost like having a stick shift in a Bentley ..what would you get out of that ?

Last edited by DSGT; 04-07-2019 at 01:59 PM.
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post #28 of 59 Old 04-07-2019, 02:40 AM
 
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You're probably right with your comments. Hehe early Bentleys WERE considered sports cars and did have manual 'boxes &#x1f642; ... in fact so did Rolls Royces, I think, before 1954 &#x1f642; .
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post #29 of 59 Old 04-07-2019, 06:41 AM

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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT View Post
Sean, do you always drive in Sport Manual?

If you shift gear at lower rpm's and throttle openings, is it still pretty slow shifting... in Sport Manual?
I always drive in Sport mode, and Manual 95% of the time. I occasionally use auto-shifting for the convenience. I find the shifting speed is never slow, especially in comparison to what a person could do. A friend of mine has a Dodge Challenger R/T 6-speed and riding with him is like riding in a farm truck. Each shift is almost painfully slow to watch him do, since I am used to the way the QP shifts.

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post #30 of 59 Old 04-07-2019, 01:47 PM

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You're probably right with your comments. Hehe early Bentleys WERE considered sports cars and did have manual 'boxes &#x1f642; ... in fact so did Rolls Royces, I think, before 1954 &#x1f642; .
True, and yeah back in the old days pretty much every car came with a stick shift.. However, if one looks up the definition of a “ sports car “ in the dictionary or in automotive books, it can only have two seats max. , it can only be a convertible, it can only have a stick shift , I can’t remember the weight ratio but that’s in there also, and so on. Hmm, I think they need to update those definitions to catch up with modern times
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