Detailed F1 clutch removal and replacement (4200) - Page 3 - Maserati Forum
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post #31 of 181 Old 10-14-2014, 11:25 PM
 
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If you don`t take it off both parts you reduce the clamping force on the clutch. They are gonna take at least .010-.015 off the surface...a mm is .039..see what I`m saying. The old crabby guy probably already knows this actually...J
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post #32 of 181 Old 10-14-2014, 11:33 PM
 
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Lighted flywheel...That is a no...That works on a race car because the revs are up and you don`t need the mass...On a street car it works against you coming off a stop light...That mass is what gets the car going...I imagine it would get the F1 box all messed up as far how quickly it releases...J
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post #33 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 12:01 AM Thread Starter
 
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Well I will make sure the old guy knows because I definitely don't want any less clamping force. Seems like I'm burning them up all on my own! Don't need any extra help.

Yes I hear what your saying, but I'm not talking about lightening it so much it couldn't keep any of the RPMs that definitely wouldn't go over well......I realize that mass keeps the car from just dropping to nothing. But it also has to be spun up before that happens. It would be faster off the corners, and slightly off the line, correct? Additionally, when you dive into the corners by immediately releasing the pedal the car would shave the rpms faster, correct?. Less mass to accelerate, but less mass to keep it accelerated when you let off.

With all this aside that's what I guess was on my mind would it really mess with the F1 system? The only sensor I see in the bell housing is the F1 sensor. Really it should be call the throw-out or thrust sensor right? That's what it's doing is telling the TCU where the thrust bearing is positioned at. It doesn't have any optics at all to see the clutch itself or the pressure plate which is why when the clutch spring retaining tangs break it doesn't set any "CC" lights or the PP fingers for that matter.
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post #34 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 12:22 AM
 
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Craig, at this point I wouldn`t want to do anything to increase my chance of problems..I`m sure you spent enough money at this point. I`m not so sure how the car would behave with a lightened flywheel....I just put them back stock and the customers leave happy.J
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post #35 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 12:26 AM Thread Starter
 
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Well, how the hell am I going to argue with that! Lol.....okay you win.......all done.

I don't use the bank anymore I come home and stuff the cash in the fuel cell, behind the seat and in the trunk!
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post #36 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 12:54 AM
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Low mass flywheels are great as long as you keep your RPMs high. Like a race car. It sucks when you shift to neutral and the throttle is cut and the engine stalls before the ECU can catch it or when your sitting at a light and the A/C compressor kicks on and the car dies.

But now your smarter and you coast down to low revs before going to neutral and have the A/C off so you'll have that extra power when the light turns green. You stamp on the gas, and crap, it just died because when the throttle opened and let all that air and fuel in, there wasn't enough energy stored in the flywheel to compress it for firing.

The flywheel in this car is heavy because it is small diameter. The car still has to idle fairly high just to keep enough energy in it. And the clutch engagement is programmed where it is so the flywheel has enough energy for compression. That's why on something like a LandCruiser, you can let off the clutch fairly rapidly without even giving it fuel. The flywheel is providing a lot of energy for compression as well as moving the car.

So, if you plan to only race and you set the car up for the launch correctly, go for it. Otherwise, I would look somewhere else for power. Just my two cents.

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post #37 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 01:20 AM Thread Starter
 
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Dave I definitely get what your saying. Jason already killed the idea with reason. I'm not talking about going all aluminum here to cut the mass for racing.......I don't know that by shaving it a couple kgs it would do all that.....but maybe, and I definitely don't want anymore problems with this thing......... or God forbid the radio stops working!!LOL!
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post #38 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 01:26 AM
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post #39 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 01:30 AM
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Jason already killed the idea with reason.
Right. I shouldn't have used reason.

Craig, the cool kids aren't shaving their flywheels, so don't do it!

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post #40 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 03:12 AM Thread Starter
 
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Well Dave, actually some of them are but I will forego the festivities in posting all the Honda, Mitsubishi, and Audi links just for you!

On another note I have the brand new clutch in the mail on it's way to me......it will be great to get the girl back together again.
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post #41 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 03:21 AM
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Well Dave, actually some of them are but I will forego the festivities in posting all the Honda, Mitsubishi, and Audi links just for you!:autofahrer
I said "cool" kids. Not just "kids"

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post #42 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 03:39 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcdave View Post
I said "cool" kids. Not just "kids"
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post #43 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 06:00 PM
 
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Love your post.... My buddy is a very good mechanic. I am sure he could do the removal. Can you give a rundown on what it takes to install the new clutch, bearing etc. How much of it would have to be done by a real Maserati shop?

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post #44 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
 
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okay guys here's a small update, I went to talk to the machine shop at about 1:00 they were already done with the FlyWheel. The older cantankerous gentleman wasn't as cantankerous today. I did get one of the looks when I politely told them I forgot I spec I needed attention paid to. When I told them the PP sits a bit higher around the flywheel and needed that identically matched with the material they removed from the facing plate. I received a small lecture on how the pressures would be off if they didn't do it, and......of course they already did it. If there's one thing I have learned about people and jobs they do, and what they are supposed to know. Never take it for granted. I received the lecture with a smile because it was a relief that people already did know what they should know. So Jason, we're good there! Ha!

So here she is for the price tag of $50 total. It's not mirrored, it has a nice satin design I tried to get in the photos like a good machined plate would have. The photos don't catch the swirl indentation in the plate that's there so that it's not an over aggressive grab when it meets the friction disc.






So here's the total cost of parts to-date for the clutch replacement:
Hill Engineering thrust bearing....$564.19
Flywheel resurface...................... $ 50.00
Clutch Pack................................$1110.00
Pilot Bearing..................................$ 30.00
F1 sensor......................................$230.0 0
Total............................................$ 1984.19

The total is with tax and everything.

Last edited by Craig; 10-15-2014 at 07:46 PM.
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post #45 of 181 Old 10-15-2014, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
 
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@Kodpkd, to be honest the only thing you will need the Mas. place for is the Leo. system or SD2/3. I know you already know this but to set the clutch parameters and tell the car it's new can only be done this way. Just have them bleed the entire system out as well. This will need to be done because you are splitting all the hydraulic lines in the bell housing. I don't believe you need to balance the clutch ON the car, which you would need them for, or again someone with the SD2/3; Leo system. Call your AAA service and have them tow it to the place when your done putting it together. I need to add this caveat though, please be sure that the place doesn't mind doing it before you tow it to them. I think Steve at the Aston Martin Dealer is more intrigued by me doing all this than anything, so he tolerates me......and I give him coffee money! Obviously I will pay for the time to do it. But let's go into clutch balancing which is important......at least to me even if not to the Dealership that changed the single plate for the double under service awhile ago under the last owner.

Many other high performance car's clutches/flywheels aren't balanced together this way when the motor is ALREADY assembled. Some have the crank/pistons, etc with the flywheel and clutch dynamic balanced BEFORE they put the motor together. Mas. tried to get around this by doing it on the car after the motor was already built which proves the rotating assembly was already balanced to itself, and the plate/flywheel are neutral balanced to the assembly. My honest opinion is this, and I'm only going to tell you something I'm going to do, not tell you to do something I wouldn't do.

Take the flywheel and clutch pack to a machine shop that specializes in clutches or balancing and have them balanced together. They were already balanced individually BUT you have to be-careful not to get into tolerance stacking.

When individual things are balanced they are balanced with-in certain tolerances. However, when you put two to three things that's been balanced individually together those individual tolerances stack up. What initially wasn't out of tolerance can be out of tolerance by stacking for the car's application.

Now I know that there are shops that simply put the most out of balance marks 180 degree apart from each other, like in my car. To be honest I really believe you can get away with it and probably not notice a thing. They were individually balanced at the factory, that's why you have the drill marks on the PP, and you have marks on both the flywheel and clutch pack to tell you where the most out of balanced position is within the balanced tolerances.
However,........why not pay the $100 that a machine shop would charge you, if that, and have them balanced together as a unit like other high performance applications? I'm only doing it because it cost so very little to do it, and I'm dead certain it will definitely be better than not doing it, though I had no vibration in my car before. The crank and pistons are already balanced in the Mas. It's balanced separately, then, they balanced the flywheel and clutch pack to a motor already balanced. I would not be convinced that balancing these together off the car wouldn't be more than sufficient at any RPM range for our cars- if balanced together as a unit at all.

To answer your question, if you have a decent mechanic that's knowledgeable, and can follow torque specs I would say your golden. I will post photos when I put my car back together as well,....... show him this post off the forum, He can print the photos out if he needs to because some of the service manual wasn't the greatest with explaining things.
When I first bought the Mas. I thought there's no way in >>>>>>I'm taking that apart. Now I'm like it was easier to drop the gear box out of this car than it was to drop a transmission and transfer case out of a truck. It was all hand built to come apart as a unit, the gear box, wiring harnesses, the torque tube, and bell housing.......go for it.

Last edited by Craig; 10-15-2014 at 08:13 PM.
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