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Transmission failure - intermittent??

23K views 66 replies 13 participants last post by  CecilG 
#1 ·
So my 2005 QP I bought two weeks ago told me "transmission failure" out of nowhere last evening. Would not go at all, would not start at all. This morning, no failure, started up and drove. Had the codes read, there were no codes in the engine control unit. This shop does not have the dealer computer, so he told me I would have to either visit a dealer to have transmission codes checked, or just keep driving and see what happens. Mechanic said it is almost certainly not the clutch, whose sensor code should get stored in the main computer when it dies.

Can anybody give me a track to run on here? Trying to avoid a 100 mile trek to the dealership.
 
#2 · (Edited)
Some over-the-counter OBDII scanners with transmission read capability will give you the failure code. When my F1 sensor failed, the scanner read "Clutch Position Sensor failure." The dealer then confirmed.

This may very well be your problem if you didn't feel any slippage leading up to the event, however the F1 system is something on which you do not want to ever speculate. They do act strangely sometimes prior to failure, just like any sensor does.

Also, I am not sure where you live but Auto Zone will lend pretty much anything to you for free with a deposit.

To quickly troubleshoot, however, if it does fail again, see if the F1 pump primes when you open the door? If not then it could be the pump or a bad connection. The window switch assembly in the driver door controls that priming signal. You may want to remove and replace the plug to see if this changes anything.

If it does prime, then the pump and connections are probably good.

If the F1 fluid level was low, then you should've had the center display read "Transmission Fluid Low" along with the failure light, but sometimes it flashes that too fast to notice. I would check it anyway. Checking that will require jacks and willingness to climb underneath your car. The level should be between your fingertip and first knuckle if you reach in to check. Wait a few minutes after opening your door though so the fluid drains back into the reservior prior to checking. If it is low, then you need Pensosin hydraulic fluid - not ATF!

A STRONG POSSIBILITY - There is a F1 relay that can fail - it is located in the trunk above the battery. Mine never has failed but I replace it occasionally anyway just as preventative. It has been the cause of many mis-diagnoses with indie shops. I heard the BMW ABS relay is interchangeable but I'd stick with the Ferrari/Maserati part - it's cheap.

I hope this helps!
 
#3 · (Edited)
Thanks for the advice; luckily still no towing! My streak continues. Except now I have a haunted car. Definitely a relay is a likely suspect; clutch wear is less likely considering the amount of highway miles on the car, in my opinion.

Shame these codes don't get stored in the main computer. Not even the clutch wear sensor?

Another strange thing was, despite the car not starting it told me to "go slowly to dealer."

Is it coincidence that this happened immediately after a fill-up at the gas station? I've read about static charge build-up during fill-ups... I could have caused a discharge through the ignition switch and sha-blam... electrical gremlin in the making
 
#4 ·
There is an exception for almost everything, but transmission failure warnings usually represent something going on in the transmission. These cars have their share of electrical gremlins, but generally they behave more like "gremlins" at the time, flashing lights, things going haywire, etc. When it happens, the well-known "Italian reboot" often solves the problem - disconnect the negative battery terminal for 2 minutes, reconnect, enter in your radio code and bada-bing.

I would like to dismiss your problems as a bad F1 relay, however if your car indeed survived nearly 50K miles in auto mode, then I'd consider it having had a good life. Have you gotten a clutch read? If not, I'd recommend doing this. If it is in fact an original clutch, then the dealer will have your original closed clutch position stored and the % wear reading should be fairly accurate.

Finally, I can only suspect you are scouring the internet for clutch solutions, knowing that the day is near. I strongly urge you to stay away from aftermarket parts (except for the highly praised Hill Engineering bearing), including rebuilt clutches. I'm not saying they don't work - I just know from experience the glitches they come with and you certainly don't need those further tarnishing your Maserati experience. My phone number is published on this forum and I have taken countless calls from those who regretted taking the $900 savings over reliability. I think my phone support on the break-in period alone has prevented at least 2 suicides per year lol.
 
#7 ·
OK thanks for the advice on the clutch. Now we have done two full days of regular driving since the "transmission failure" and still problem free. Fingers crossed, but yes no matter what happens I will get some kind of clutch evaluation in the next couple of months.
I know that 46,000 miles seems like a lot but, the PO assured me that he literally *only* used the car for highway trips. So that means 37,000 miles of highway driving (he bought the car from the first owner with 9,000 miles on the clock). By a quick back-of-the-envelope guesstimate, I'd say my clutch has the equivalent of about 20,000 miles of typical driving.

On the Italian reboot procedure, the shop I visited said that I should disconnect both battery cables and hold them together for a few seconds, in order to drain capacitors in the system.
Is this not a good procedure?
 
#5 ·
A clutch read... yeah that's what the PO tried to get a dealership to do on two separate trips before I completed the purchase. For some weird reason they would only "road-test" the car to placate him about the clutch. Road-testing a computer-driven system like this seems counterproductive to me. What could possibly be found out on a road test if there are no electronic system warnings?
 
#6 ·
Just thought I would throw this into the mix. Have you checked your alternator or battery, if the current is not enough or is dipping this may also throw codes. It may be current fluctuations which I experienced and it caused transmission warnings, suspension warning, limp home mode. Turned out to be a faulty alternator intermittently dropping charge.
Just a thought.
 
#8 ·
I had the same experience with my 09 GTS F1. It was the CPS (clutch position sensor). It was very random, could run a few days and then when just moving around a parking lot and just die "transmission Failure". Very very frustrating for sure. But to be honest al the speculation in the world wont help you until you get it hooked up to a SD3 or Leo system. The Transmission NCR will have the codes stored in it and you will know what the problem is.


As far as the clutch goes, 46k would be an extremely long F1 clutch life. Not saying it is impossible but you are probably close to the end of it life, if not already there. But again, once you get it hooked into the correct scan tool you will be able to find out all the information you need. The transmission NCR stores and monitors an insane amount of data. You will the know what direction to need to look at.


Good luck
 
#9 ·
Yes clearly it has to go to dealer, hopefully before it needs to be towed there.

In your experience, did the car say to "go slowly to dealer" in addition to the failure message? This struck me as strange with the car not able to start -- kind of contradictory huh?

I realize 46K miles seems like a lot, but since 37,000 of those are highway miles I will be a bit surprised if the clutch is actually gone. The number of "shifts per mile" is very very low on the highway.
 
#12 ·
The new clutch parameters can be set with a few systems, namely, the SD3, Leonardo and ST05. The ST05 is a small device that has limited adjusting capability but will perform a PIS adjustment without issue. I believe the Leo systems are more robust, and from what I've heard, can do all the necessary adjustments. The SD3 is a very comprehensive tool which comes with a laptop and various connecting devices, in addition to the OBDII plug. These are the most complete, which is why when I opted for a clutch rebuild (which I don't recommend), the SD3 got it on the road where the ST05 couldn't reach some areas of adjustment. The SD3s are around $40K, are much less user friendly and require dealer updates. I did see one for sale in Naples, FL for $25K. He offered to sell it to me for $18k. I saw a ST05 with Ferrari/Maserati software on ebay sell for $3,500.00.

In summary, if/when you get the clutch replaced, be sure to have a shop equipped with a Leo unit, as those are the most capable aftermarket programming tools. If they are not, and they are skilled enough to perform the operation, bring the car to the dealership for a final SD3 adjustment following installation of the clutch.
 
#11 ·
Not quite 12k, my Leo system was 7k. But still a high price.

But a good investment to keep up on parameters/ maintenance and such.

Mine always said "transmission failure, go to dealer"and died. It would start and I could drive a bit. But I had to drop the transmission and bell housing and replace the CPS eventually . Which did solve that problem for the time being.

The clutch wear is typically more around 15-20k. It is possible to do better but it requires a bit of adjustment of the PIS and other maintenance.
 
#14 ·
I can not say for sure if it would save you any money or not, I would guess no. It would not save you money. Plus the pain in the ass of having to transport a car around.
He is correct in the fact that you should NOT drive it until the parameters are set up for the new clutch.


Good luck
 
#16 ·
Opinions differ on this, apparently. My local shop owner said he had suggested doing this for a local Ferrari 360 owner, but the nearest Ferrari service shop told him that if the car were driven there for final adjustment the clutch would be a total loss by the time the car would arrive.
 
#17 ·
You may or may not even be able to drive it until the PIS is reset with the new clutch. The CPS should be replaced at the same time and will generally require setting up. Then bed the clutch and have the PIS dialed in precisely. And yes, the PIS could be far enough out that you will smoke the new clutch or so close that the engine stalls.
 
#19 ·
I'm not sure what you're saying, but my point was that if a new clutch is installed and the PIS isn't set, then you are rolling the dice on where it actually is. It may be close enough to drive, or it may burn the new discs. The % doesn't have anything to do with it; only the real measurements made by the CPS on the car as it's assembled matter. Because of slight differences in the assembly process, you could be off by a few hundredths of a millimeter just reassembling the original pieces. IMHO it's too much time and money to drive on a new clutch without setting the initial PIS. After a couple hundred miles, it needs to be set more precisely because it won't change after that for a long time.
 
#21 ·
Be sure the car has a full battery charge and had a reboot with some driving time before you decide that there is certainly a transmission issue. The displays on the QP's like to show general errors like transmission failure, suspension failure, etc.. often when it's just a low battery voltage and sometimes that's all that's needed is to charge up the battery or replace a faulty one.

In regards to the clutch service... If your shop knows how to do the clutch installation and can do a full complete job that they're willing to warranty and the only part they are missing is the tool / setup to get the final clutch parameters dialed in then sure, have them change out the clutch and then have it towed to the dealer for computer setup. I wouldn't drive it to the shop, as mentioned, no reason to risk glazing a new clutch because of incorrect parameters when you're on your way to have them correctly setup. Just spend the bit extra to tow the car there and get it done right.

Hope that helps!
 
#30 ·
Be sure the car has a full battery charge and had a reboot with some driving time before you decide that there is certainly a transmission issue. The displays on the QP's like to show general errors like transmission failure, suspension failure, etc.. often when it's just a low battery voltage and sometimes that's all that's needed is to charge up the battery or replace a faulty one.

Hope that helps!
Hmm, should have checked this earlier I guess. I'm getting ready for a trip out of town and the car has been seriously acting up, shutting down with "transmission failure" and then starting up again after a while, in the recent cold snap. So I plugged in my Maserati brand trickle charger and it started out with only two lights in the sequence, six is a full charge. My two-year-old battery is weak! This could be the cause of the whole business. The PO had let this battery die recently, could have killed it I guess or maybe the alternator is in trouble. Something is not keeping it properly charged. It did charge with the trickle this evening after about 7 hours.
 
#22 ·
Since I've been driving for several days now with no sign of a problem, it is seeming more and more like some kind of a gremlin. Yet there is not seemingly anything wrong with the battery either. What would happen if I turned the key over to start position too quickly, like while the start-up checks were still being performed? Currently I am waiting until the transmission light et al. goes out with the start-up checks. What if you try to start when the transmission check is still being performed?
 
#23 ·
It really is a fairly common issue that can come up where the battery is low just for a start and then once you drive a bit it gets back up to full charge and you simply don't see the issue again. I don't believe that turning the key too quickly would cause the issue. It's just something that happens in the background and being that so few of these cars are actually produced, we do find some of these gremlins from time to time. It's also very cold right now and so a cold start in a cold climate will really put a good amount of load on a battery that's been working well for you. If the issue doesn't return and your battery is in good shape, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Hope that helps!

Best Regards,
 
#24 ·
Failure happened again this evening (first time since 2 weeks ago) as I was backing into my garage. I pushed it the extra foot and shut it down. Two hours later, it's fine again.

So it definitely seems like a faulty clutch sensor or relay. It's raining this evening, those kinds of things tend to come out in the rain.
 
#25 ·
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this to you yet, but be VERY CAREFUL when "backing up" into a garage in the QP. If there is even a slight incline, or lip to drive over, you will be grinding hard on your clutch as you roll in with it partially engaged. Regardless of how you did it, or how you insist it was done carefully, I would make a habit of driving in nose-first.

Also, it does not sound like a F1 sensor, but can very well be the F1 relay. It's an easy fix. Order it from FM dealer and install - it's in a cluster next to the battery, if I remember correctly.
 
#27 ·
One thing I wonder is why does it take significant time to reset the system? Once it fails, then when I try to turn the key again it immediately comes up with the failure, like before the ignition systems check can even get started. So it's as if the failure condition is just stored, it's not actually checking for a failure. Come back 2 hours later and it's all good. I wonder how long is this "refractory period" of the check system before it resets? 10 minutes? 30 minutes? 1 hour?
 
#29 ·
To clarify the diagnosis procedure,

if indeed the transmission cut-out "gremlin" is caused by a bad relay or brake switch, these things would be shown in the TCU codes from when it shut down? Or would we still be guessing? I'm going take it all the way down to the dealership and I would like to know that they can actually fix the problem, instead of just charging me plenty of money and *saying* that they fixed it, only to have it return two weeks later. Because if we're guessing I can get my local shop to do that, they are pretty good guessers I'm sure.
 
#31 ·
Update:

new battery, running OK now, alternator checks out good.

However the clutch is indeed gone, by visual inspection. The TCU codes thrown were from clutch wear sensors; three different codes.

So at this point we are not certain if the codes were real or 'phantom' from the battery issue; either way I am off to the dealership in San Jose for the clutch job scheduled for February.

Estimate $8100 including flywheel, if necessary. Yeesh. Now the wife is mad, I told her it would be $5K.

However, the dealer service guy was baffled that the clutch sensors would be throwing codes while there is yet no mechanical sign of clutch wear (slippage, chatter). So even if we are doing the clutch a few miles early, it's a good way to keep the old flywheel.
 
#32 ·
Called Roselli Foreign Car in San Jose, they quoted me $3,000 for the job, $3800 if flywheel needed, which they said was unlikely. Guy I spoke to was very reassuring, said they do a lot of these jobs. He also said that the "yowling" I hear somewhat sometimes on takeoff is really from the clutch itself being worn out and probably not the bellhousing bearing. He said that perhaps one out of two dozen Quattroporte clutches have a bad bellhousing bearing, but they often yowl instead of chattering or slipping outright, when worn down.
 
#34 ·
Update: car is in the midst of its clutch job at Roselli Foreign Car Repair (interesting and huge place, see pics here). He has ascertained that indeed the "transmission failure" I was getting was not from the clutch worn out, because there is still a tiny bit left. He said that after not too much longer, if I had not had the battery issue that started this mess, the transmission simply would have not gone into gear and I would have wound up on a tow-truck instead of a nice drive.

Now they are also going to replace the engine mounts, which are getting worn out and will soon be transmitting vibration to the car. This will be cheaper on labor with the driveline already down.
 

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#35 ·
Picked up my car with its new clutch today, and that's all good. However, after driving about 50 miles, she started to act up again with electrical gremlins not unlike the one that started this thread. It began with a check engine light that came on as I was driving 70 mph up a hill. There was not any evident problem with the car. When I stopped for gas, it started up fine but then as I was trying to leave the gas station it suddenly stopped. Then I spent about 5 minutes getting it restarted. The starting behavior was pretty wild. Sometimes it would refuse to crank because "transmission failure." Sometimes it would crank but not fire. Sometimes it would start but then stop running immediately. After about 12 tries we started and continued the journey. Then I began to get "transmission failure" warning while driving at 70 mph, although the car was not affected until I came to a stop much later down the road, where it stopped running again and a similar circus of starting attempts ensued.

All in all it stopped running about 4 times today; each time I was eventually able to get it restarted so it ran for a while longer, until the next time. None of the warnings are consistent. It doesn't always say "transmission failure." It seems literally like a gremlin.

Any ideas what connections or devices should be checked? Of course it was too much to ask that this should happen while it was safe at a shop filled with experts. They put 20 miles on to seat the new clutch and all was well for them.

Advice appreciated,

Sean
 
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