HP gains from Mods - Maserati Forum
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post #1 of 44 Old 10-19-2011, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
 
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HP gains from Mods

I know that firstly, one must take with a grain of salt the advertised HP and torque gains to be had from modifications. As well, I understand that to accurately determine this one would have to perform a dyno test (is that even possible with a QP?). Lastly, I have heard, but don't completely understand why, that even if you had an accurate number for a particular mod, you can not just add them together to get the total HP/Torque gain.

Notwithstanding the above, what would you predict the gain to be for a QP 4.2L DuoSelect which is advertised as 400HP / 339 lb-ft.


Airfilter = "Increases HP and Torque" (as per FD site) I'm guessing maybe 2-3bhp at most?

Larini rear box = "5-7% Power Increase" (FD site) therefore 20-28bhp?

Larini sport cat = "18HP / 22 ft/lbs Torque" (FD site)

Larini X pipe = "8-10 HP" (FD site)

FD ECU = 20-30 bhp /12 -32 ft/lb (FD site; N.B. dyno data provided)

FD DBWE = 0



So if taking midrange of advertised possible gains, the maximum possible is 400 + 78 = 478 bhp. I don't have torque increases for all mods, but for those above, it would be 339 + 44 = 383 lb-ft. Surely one doesn't realize this magnitued of gain! It goes without saying the Jeff would never have suggested this either. For comparison purposes, the 4.7 is advertised as 433 bhp and 361 lb-ft.

What is your "guess" as to what the the total gain with the above mods would be for the 4.2L?.

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post #2 of 44 Old 10-19-2011, 04:32 PM
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There is no more than 40hp TOTAL available to be gained in modern fuel injected cars with the usual bolt on mods. The intake, exhaust and ECU mods all work together to get the 40hp gain, none of them will accomplish that number on their own entirely and the actual gain of each component will vary based on what's already been done.

The ECU and high flow catalytic converters are your primary gains, either good for about 20hp.

The only way to get above the 40hp gain is with long tube race style headers and sometimes a custom tune to optimize their flow characteristics.
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post #3 of 44 Old 10-19-2011, 07:17 PM
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In general, you can't stack the gains of all the mods together simply because some of the gain you'll get from one mod will overlap the gain of another mod.

A simple example is that if you increase flow with one exhaust mod and gain some power then there is now less restriction. So adding another exhaust bit that improves flow will not provide the same gain, but there is still a gain.

We've dyno'd the setup you have a while back and realized a 56hp gain. There's a lot of goodies there to open up the exhaust flow and once the ECU is tuned to take advantage, it's a noticable kick in the pants.

I do agree with Josh though that in general it's pretty difficult to see much more than that. Long Tube headers would probably be the next big area of improvement without going into forced induction.

Also remember that it's not just about peak power, it's about the torque curve and the availability of the power at different rpm's.

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post #4 of 44 Old 10-19-2011, 08:00 PM
 
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What about his mods, but in addition the FD ECM with flip chip capability set to 100, 110, or even C16 octane race fuel? What kind of power increase would this add?

Last edited by Silex840; 10-19-2011 at 08:28 PM.
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post #5 of 44 Old 10-19-2011, 08:21 PM
 
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I had all the FD mods installed on my car, including the de-restricted Larini and the ECU tuned to optimize the engine to the increased exhaust flow.

The performance difference is very noticeable. Sometimes I switch off the ECU mod (for example, if I'm driving on a long highway cruise, where I don't need the extra power but I can do with improved fuel mileage), and as soon as I switch it back on the difference is staggering from 3500 rpm to the redline at full throttle. It genuinely feels like the engine has been increased from 4.2 liters to 4.7!

I believe Jeff's quote of 56 HP above stock. My GS doesn't feel any slower than my 485 HP Maranello above 5000 rpm, so I know the power is there.
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post #6 of 44 Old 10-19-2011, 08:22 PM Thread Starter
 
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Now I understand the math!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaDynamics View Post
In general, you can't stack the gains of all the mods together simply because some of the gain you'll get from one mod will overlap the gain of another mod.

A simple example is that if you increase flow with one exhaust mod and gain some power then there is now less restriction. So adding another exhaust bit that improves flow will not provide the same gain, but there is still a gain.

We've dyno'd the setup you have a while back and realized a 56hp gain....

Best Regards,
-- Jeff
Thanks Jeff for explanation. I should have been able to figure out why you can't just add the numbers together, and in particular, were I to have thought about your exhaust example with increased flow!

Very interesting about the dyno results showing 56hp gain. I always wondered how to answer to the question "how much horsepower does she have?" which seems to be the first thing people want to know followed by "how much did it cost?" I never understood why perfect strangers would feel that's an appropriate question. With that said, could I ask if you are able to share the dyno curves showing the gains at the various RPMs?

Again thanks again for your explanation and fantastic mods! You don't need a dyno to know there is improvement; you can feel it in the seat of your pants and hear it too!

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post #7 of 44 Old 10-19-2011, 08:27 PM
 
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Of course, you could always have it dyno'ed and keep the chart in the glovebox
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post #8 of 44 Old 10-19-2011, 09:54 PM

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Does anyone have numbers on the QP 4.7L GTS with the air filter, ECU, and DBW mods? The 4.7L is quoted with 433-440 HP depending on what you read. So, with 440 + 56 HP gain, the car is almost up to 500 hp? Seems pretty sketchy.

Who wants to chime in here?
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post #9 of 44 Old 10-19-2011, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanzyl View Post
Does anyone have numbers on the QP 4.7L GTS with the air filter, ECU, and DBW mods? The 4.7L is quoted with 433-440 HP depending on what you read. So, with 440 + 56 HP gain, the car is almost up to 500 hp? Seems pretty sketchy.

Who wants to chime in here?
This conversation is illustrating why more and more tuners are avoiding advertising hard gains. There are far too many variables to pin point these numbers.

It's entirely possible the 4.7 is capable of touching 500hp with a complete tuned package of bolt on's. The problem that you're probably imagining is involve with drivetrain losses. If a manual/CC car loses 50HP from the flywheel to the ground, a 4.7 with a torque converter transmission may be losing 75hp through the drivetrain.

The 400hp makes 450hp, and loses 50 for a total usable output of 400rwhp, the 440hp car gains 50, and loses 75hp for a total usable output of 415rwhp. Then add in the fact the the later car is a couple of few hundred pounds heavier...it make more power but has more disadvantages.

The total gains of 40-50rwhp is pretty standard for all modern cars. I've seen charts of F430's fitted with high flow cats gaining 40rwhp on the dyno, independently tested. The engine is smaller than 4.7L and makes nearly 490HP from the factory. Bolt on mods absolutely gets it well over 500hp estimated.
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post #10 of 44 Old 10-20-2011, 01:06 AM
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I haven't seen noticably improved gains with higher octane fuels. Once you're at 93, which is what the motor was designed for, you don't see more power unless you make a real change to the motor. Bolt-ons aren't enough to change the octane requirements.

It's really hard to compare all these power numbers this way. Even the factory #'s aren't consistant and the drivetrain losses are different also between the models and transmissions. The Sport GTS also already has an X-Pipe and a better performing exhaust when the standard model didn't so the gains on that model may not be as strong for those parts.

Also remember that when you stack upgrades and don't technically gain more "peak" power, it still doesn't mean that there wasn't a gain there, it may just have been in low end to mid range torque, which is also very important. Peak #'s are not the holy grail of performance by any means.

I think that the point is that when you feel the gain seat of the pants, enjoy it and go have fun!

Best Regards,
-- Jeff

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post #11 of 44 Old 10-20-2011, 05:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
This conversation is illustrating why more and more tuners are avoiding advertising hard gains. There are far too many variables to pin point these numbers.

It's entirely possible the 4.7 is capable of touching 500hp with a complete tuned package of bolt on's. The problem that you're probably imagining is involve with drivetrain losses. If a manual/CC car loses 50HP from the flywheel to the ground, a 4.7 with a torque converter transmission may be losing 75hp through the drivetrain.

The 400hp makes 450hp, and loses 50 for a total usable output of 400rwhp, the 440hp car gains 50, and loses 75hp for a total usable output of 415rwhp. Then add in the fact the the later car is a couple of few hundred pounds heavier...it make more power but has more disadvantages.

The total gains of 40-50rwhp is pretty standard for all modern cars. I've seen charts of F430's fitted with high flow cats gaining 40rwhp on the dyno, independently tested. The engine is smaller than 4.7L and makes nearly 490HP from the factory. Bolt on mods absolutely gets it well over 500hp estimated.
I have some interesting info on this topic.

Andrea Bertolini, the racing driver that recently won the European "superstars" championship for super-sedans on a Quattroporte 4.7 racing car, said the following in an interview this week (rough translation):

"Last year we were running a custom-modified engine with an output of 535 HP, this year we moved to an absolutely stock 4.7 liter unit with an output of 493 HP and much better driveability, which helped us to improve the car's handling on many tracks where good driveability in the corners easily compensates for any losses in the straights. We did not need to do ANY modifications to the engine, which saved us a lot of money".

Now, this tells me one clear message: with a free-flow racing exhaust (WITH catalysts - they are compulsory for European racing series), an optimized intake and an optimized ECU, but without any hardware modifications, the 4.7 engine is good for almost 500 HP.

Which ties in with what Jeff's estimates very neatly.

Now I'm looking forward to tweaking the Granturismo S to 500 HP
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post #12 of 44 Old 02-28-2013, 05:32 AM
 
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Which gives more gains, x pipe or 200 cel sports cats?
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post #13 of 44 Old 02-28-2013, 10:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SAMLAMBO View Post
Which gives more gains, x pipe or 200 cel sports cats?
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post #14 of 44 Old 02-28-2013, 10:55 PM
 
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I am inherently skeptical about modifying normally aspirated cars.

"custom-modified engine" says to me the modification is internal to the engine, whatever else might be modded exhaust or intake wise. On a NA car like the QP, the major restrictor is the engine itself.

I think a dyno graph before and after are absolutely essential in mods. It needs to show whether there is a gain across the rev range, among other things. Low-rev gains would be far more beneficial to high rev gains for street driving. I will gladly give up 5% at the top end to gain 10% at the bottom. On one of the Porsche forums I frequent, some guy did the whole intake/"brand-name" exhaust/ECU mod package, and actually dyno'ed a loss of hp.

As for seat of pants feel, my Mazda feels extremely fast/powerful on the road due to the way the torque is delivered at low rev when the turbo kicks in, yet in 0-100 the QP is clearly faster by far when I timed them.

Psychologically speaking, a placebo gain is a very real gain and shouldn't be discounted as it does cause an actual release of dopamine in the brain. And philosophically, kids who believe in Santa should be left alone to do so.

Personally, I am like a 7 year old - hugely suspicious and skeptical of the fatman climbing down the chimney, but still holding out some hope if shown proof that he arrived on a floating slate.

And another thing - we don't always drive at 100% throttle right? So.... if we are prodding along at 50% throttle, for a 10% gain, just train ourselves to drive at a constant 55% throttle instead. No?

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Last edited by Jinster; 02-28-2013 at 11:22 PM.
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post #15 of 44 Old 02-28-2013, 11:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinster View Post
Philosophically speaking though, placebo gain is a very real gain and shouldn't be discounted in so far as actual dopamines released in the brain.

My Alfa GTV6 use to feel like I was flying, but it was hardly fast. The Ansa Sport with no cats or resonators really made it exciting to drive and that was good enough for me. There's plenty of German cars that go real fast, but they lack the excitement that most on this forum want from a car, a Maserati.

Former '85 Biturbo E owner 25+ years ago.
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